FE-FC Holden Discussion Forum

howdy.  ;D

can i put a blue 202 crank and rods into a 186 block?

i think i read somewhere that the 186 had a stroke of 3in and the 202 is like 3¼in or something...? custom pistons are a must anyways...

only reason i ask is that the blue rods and crank are SO much better than red parts - and i have a formula to make a genuine 450RWHP out of a turbo'd 202 using a (prepped) blue bottom end.

main reason i ask is that i don't have the budget for special rods and billet cranks.

if anyone else has any ideas then please post (maybe another combo...).

thanks

I am sure the crank in my 202 is a blue motor jobbie, the rods are Starfire items. Apparently BMW rods are the go for strength and cost less than the specialty items. The last Extreme Magazine features a Turboed orange LJ Torana that uses BMW rods and is pulling 10s down the quarter.

what BMW are the rods from? can i still put a 202 crank in a 186 block with these rods?

53 views and only one reply...? ???

is there anywhere i can FIND this info? i've tried googling but i get practically nothing on modifying a 186 - just manufacturer's specs a million times over.

anyone?

I'll call the guy who built my motor, he mentioned the BMW rods to me ages ago, or you call the dude who owns the Torana. He has his own business -
Mark - EZE 10s Performance - 0404 171 101

Ive been looking too, and what was australias favourite six seems to be forgotten about, if anyone comes accross a good informative sight on modifying holden sixes let us know.
I also plan to use blue crank and rods in my next rebuild, we did it with a mates motor but we had to take the blue crank and red block into a engine shop for machining. it went pretty hard and went from being slower to faster than my car ( seriously we would drag each other at least once a day for about 3 years).
try searching for sites including LJ and LC toranas, those guys seem to take there red sixes more serious than over holden people.

Hey guys,

I'd try Ian Tate (former mechanic for HDT).  He runs his own automotive business now.  There was a feature in Australian Muscle Car a while back about his work on red 202 motors.  What he doesnt know about makong holden sixes go quick isn't worth knowing.

I can have a look for the article if you like.

There is also a feature on Ron Harrop's FJ howler that ran a 179 that put out 255KW.  I think there was some info on rods in that feature as well

Cheers
Dave

Have you tried the other Holden model clubs that ran the 202's, torana sites, maybe even the later Holden or Monaro sites could have some information??
maybe worth a look?
Matt

Hey guys don't quote me on this as I haven't had a chance to check my books but the crank and rods are the same from a 149 to the 186, holden then made a new crank for the 202.  Now I believe that 202 crank won't fit into the smaller engines as the main journals are spaced out differently, I played around with a stroker 186 about ten years ago and from memory the ford 221 crank would fit into a 186 or a 179 but not the 202.  All you need to do is ring up a local eng builder and they should be happy to tell you what you can and carn't do.  If you want your red to go fast $2000 rod hatfield super charger bolts straight on and is legal and when you blow that motor up bolt it on the next one. ;)
Tumbles

"If you want your red to go fast $2000 rod hatfield super charger bolts straight on and is legal"

sorry to hijack this thread but a lot of folk talking about these..has anyone actually got one? If so what's it like, how does it go in normal use, and does it fit in FE/FC engine bay? I think quite a few of us would be interested..

Jonno

And if you are a handy-man, $350-500 will buy you one of the supercharger units. You just have to work it all out.
I saw one of the HaDfield kits on an LJ torana, apparently it gave the torrie a fair bit more horsepower at the expense of running hotter.
If it fits in the LJ engine bay, I don't think FE/FCs would be a problem.

Hi Guys.

I missed this post, otherwise I would have answered earlier.

The only thing stopping a 202 crank fitting a 186 block is the larger main bearing jounal diameter. The 202 has a longer stroke (3" vs 3.25") & shorter skirt piston to match, rods are the same length. 202 & 186 are the same bore.

The 2 ways out of this are,

1. Machine the main journal (& the rear seal area) down 186 size.
OR
2. Have the 186 block line bored to accept the 202 crank journals.

The thing is, both of these procedures are expensive when compared to the worth of a 2nd hand 202 block. What are you trying to achieve. Just get a complete 202.

Dr Terry.

1st reason is I like the HP lettering and I can say although it has a later model motor it's still a 60's motor.

2nd, I like it at the drags when they say"in the left lane we have Leon from seven hills with his 179 powered FC holden. although it is really 192ci

3rd, I dont want to go through all the hassles with blue slippers and engineers again.

a blue 3.3 block has to comply with the adr's of the year of the block.

exactly ^^^

slip a 186 in there, even though it has a bigger crank and more ci, and it still says "186" on the side.

machining out the journals isn't a big issue really, it would be the only real expense in the whole project.

everything else is factory with ACL pistons, rings and pins, ARP studs, linished, polished and cryo treated rods & crank, cryo treated bearings, pistons, block and valves, rhodes lifters, crow cam and pushrods.

unsure of the head atm, but using a thin copper head gasket and sleeves for the oil and water galleries.

9.5:1 CR (ACL pistons are only available in 10.0:1 so they'll need a small dish machined in them) and about 12psi of boost (about 13.5:1 total CR)

running a trace molybdenum in the sump to harden all the bearings and bushes.

running a pair of Subaru Forester turbos on the side of it ($100 ea!!).

delco management.

aaaaaaaaand i think that's about it.

Hi guys.

OK then, message received.

A 179 HP will bore quite safely to 192 ci, but that has nothing to do with a 202 crank.

If you wish to keep the HP block, have the crank main journals mahined down. If you don't do any further stroking, you will have a 208, if you keep the 192 bore.

Dr Terry.

Many years ago when I lived in the ACT it used to be illegal to run a bigger engine in any old holden, for example: to replace a 149 or 179 in an EH with a 202.  However some friends of mine (not me of course) worked out that with a bit of grinding, the 202 numbers on the side of the block would come off making it look like a 149 block.  If you needed a 179 block then liquid steel from a tube could be formed into HP for the side of the block. Then with just a bit of work on the engine number to reflect the changes and, hey presto, a 149 that performs just like 202!!  

So you could even line up at the drags and tell everyone you have a small block 149 powered FC!

Have fun
earlee.

Good tip!!!

I used the same liquid steel to make my drum brakes look like discs, and my king pins look like ball joints. Works a treat - the car even handles and stops better.

Alright!!!!!

;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;D

Sorry couldn't resist....................

changing engine numbers is a big no-no.

if you get caught out - worse still you have an accident, kill someone and THEN get caught out - you're talking being a  blow up doll for a big bloke named bubba with a packet of hotdogs for a neck sleeping in the bunk above you.

no thanks.

Hey eff_see,  

of course if you change an engine number and get caught - then you are a dickhead!  

The idea is to not get caught -  same as everything else in this world - if you don't like it then don't do it!

kind regards
earlee.

 I have a To4 but I am missing the exhuast manifold and needs a rebuild, my motor currently is a HP bored to 192, balanced, 35/75 hydrulic, ported with big valves, double springs, posi locks, ross balancer, VH dizzy, extractors, and a 350 holley with electric fuel pump and fan and it has nowere near the power I would like.    transmission is a beefed up tri matic with a hurst pro master 2 shifter.
I have been thinking of getting a ex jap car supercharger but I am not real sure of the value as they are only made for small motors, one way of overcoming this would maybe be to simply overdrive it a bit more i guess.
another thing I was thinking of was a 100 hp nitrous kit but it would then only have the extra power when I was using the nitrous and means costly re fills and is too expensive to use when I am running late for work.
Also I hope to not blow up the motor as I will be relying on it to get me to work.
at the present I would like to give my motor a freshen up, I dont have all the funds to go all out yet but I thought it would be a good Idea to do what I can while replacing the subframe.
So now I want to figure out what I will be doing and prepare the bottom end.
I was thinking a blue crank and rods, keeping the standard O/S ACL pistons if they go together, straight cut gearsand a balance. I dont know wether to keep the cam as I dont know how to go with the induction yet.
up top I was hoping to add roller rockers and having the head reconditioned again, head is a fairly hot 9 port red and according to the guys that did the last reco it can not be shaved again. origionally I was just going to change the crank and rods, fit a 40/70 solid cam and a 390 or 420 4bbl holley and a 2500rpm stall convertor.
now that I am living within hearing distance of eastern creek I want to start going to street meets again, the car was running fairly consistantly 17.0-17.2 as is but with a 2:78 and a 3 speed with a speco centreshift that jambed if you shifted too quick, I haven't run it with the auto as everything out there is pretty quick now and it could be embarrassing to pull a 17.0 next to a 13 second hatch back.
with rego, nationals accomidation and other stuff needed for the car in the next 6 weeks I am going to have to do whatever I can on a budget.
I would like to get into 15's but even quicker would be much better.
should i go- a big cam 3.3 crank and 4bbl,
- a turbo
- nitrous
or a jap car supercharger.
I am mainly looking for hp per dollar as well as strength.
and will I be sacraficing RPM with the longer stroke of the blue crank?

If you REALLY want to find out what is the best combination try out the little DOS program called Dragstrip Plus, you can download it here - http://www.stangstable.com/downloads.htm
or I can email copies if you like.
It is shareware and I think that the creator has gone bust/moved on/whatever.
But anyway, I tried it using the detailed analysis on a couple of cars and it was accurate to 2/100ths of a second. The beauty of this program is that is will recommend changes to your set-up to optimise your times eg change timing, need larger cam etc. Plus you can change the setup to explore "whatif" scenarios, the only drawback is that you can only save one setting in the database. Even though it is an American program I still used it to predict times in a 6cyl Torana and it was accurate, just using the settings that suited our Aussie Six.
It may be a pain getting all the data for the detailed analysis, but the end result is worth it, online help is very good too.

No, if you change an engine number at all then you are a dickhead.  Relying on not getting caught is what all criminals do, but plenty are.  And that reliance is cold comfort to any victim in an accident where such forgery comes to light.

Since the growth of the 're-birthing' industry the penalties for this are severe.  It's all very well to say don't do it if you don't like it, but the problem is the risk to others.

This is bad advice, even in jest.

word ^^^

anyways, those SC14 ex toyota superchargers are a neat bit of gear. they're suitable for low revving, bigger engines and can spin internally up to 11,000rpm before the teflon coating melts.

SC14 means it displaces 1.4L of air per revolution, or 14,700 litres of air per minute at 10,500rpm.

a 192ci spinning to 6000rpm displaces 192ci of air every 2.5ish rpm (i forget the exact figures) so do the sums and the toyota charger will still be able to supply the air required and make +ve boost.

what worries me more is that you're thinking about a 35/75 cam on an engine with a supercharger that will boost straight from idle. think more along the lines of 25/68, 28/68, 30/70 (max). turbos are different because you can size the exhaust housing and/or manifold and/or wastegate actuator to co-incide with the change in the engine's volumetric efficiency of the lumpy cam.

remember, add just 0.3bar of boost (about 4psi) and all head flow figures go out the window - so don't get too caught up in all that.

the 35/75 would probably be going in the case of a supercharger in favour a supercharger grind cam or just standard one.
even if I dont get a supercharger yet or the turbo rebuilt I still want to have the motor ready (eg) rite cam and decompression plates.
I am just trying to decide what way to go, the super charger seems to be a cheap option, they seem to be going for around $300 on ebay and Ive seen a pair of range rover twin strommy CD's for $30, I now have a mig to fabricate most of the stuff required but one concern is my small gap between the harmonic balancer and the radiator for a pulley.

IMO replacing your engine number is just as evil as replacing your rusty subframe. my subframe has been changed and is about to get changed again.
am I a big dickhead?

I guess it depends on how you change the engine number, I am changing mine by replacing the block (the whole motor actually)  ;D  ;D

You'd get the most honest answer if you went down your local cop shop and asked them.

Leon,

As you well know my point was in the context of the previous post that discussed grinding off block size stampings, and restamping engine numbers to make a larger motor appear to be something other than what it is.

The chassis number is an issue with a bit more grey area, because it's the vehicle's identifier, yet can be unbolted and replaced for legitimate reasons.  But swapping a front end doesn't achieve anything in terms of the vehicle's performance, which is what we were discussing.

cheers
RET

just think, by changing chasis numbers you can build 2 identical cars, one with a blown big block and the other with a grey, you then simply take the grey powered one to the service station to clear the defect, go home swap your number plates back over and start driving your blown big block around again with it's defect cleared.
all you need is to get a police number on the subframe of the stocker and copy it to the other car, that your your stampings can be rough as guts becuase it is known that the number had to be put there after manufacturing.
other thing is but, never open both garage doors at once.
I wouldn't change my number on my block . it is aparently the 5th hp 186 made in melbourne, it has a hp on the side and the engine number is M186005, ive had it since I was 18 and done lots of burnouts. it was apparently a over the counter motor that was a 179 remanufactured to 186 to be sold as a replacement HR motor as well as use up the remaining 179 HP motors.
gee, I might go and drive it now and get some pizza.

Hi FCCOOL.

I think someone has fed you a line on this one.

The engine number M186005 is the 185005th EH engine manufactured in the the EH run around June/July 1964. The reason I say 185005th & not 186005th isa because the engine numbers started at 1001 not 1. The M prefix signifies it as a 179 but all the engines used the same numerical running order.

The HP casting was changed to 179 around November 1964, so there were around another 18 months production of 179s before the 186 was released.

By the way there is nothing special about the HP cast blocks, they are simple EH 179s.

Dr Terry.

I dont know, that was what my engineer told me, he also asked if it had a remunufactured to 186 ci badge on it above the engine number.
the badge was there but had been removed when I took it in for boring and to have the cam bearings fitted, I didn't ask them to take it of, I just got it back and it was gone.
the badge looked to be from the factory and I didn't think you could get a EH with a 186

Well thank goodness we all tread the straight and narrow in regard to replacing engines.

on another issue -
I am sure that no-one on this forum has ever bogged up rust in a car, even in a headlight eyebrow!  Mainly because we all know that it is illegal, as a car with rust will not pass a roadworthy inspection - hence it must be unsafe in the event of an accident.  

regards
earlee

unfortuneatly for me both my FE sedan and my FC ute have been bogged in the past,my ute has not been to bad though ,but my FE sedan(hui) was so full of bog it is scary,probably just a NSW fix,lol :-X with whole sill panel shaped with bog not even fibreglass which has a bit of strength,  it is not illegal to do this but you just never know what you will find under nice paint.

You're missing a critical difference: if you fraudulently change an engine number, it's you in the hot seat.  If an accident uncovers the fact that a car is full of bog and unsafe, it is most likely the issuer of the roadworthy who will be investigated.

I think you and nicko are both incorrect here: use of body filler is perfectly acceptable in the process of rust repair, except in the repair of structural components.  No-one disputes the use of filler on things like head-light peaks or whatever, but there's a crucial difference between rust repair and rust concealment.

cheers
RET

hey Ret,

Why are you so wound up. We are not setting gov't policy. It's about someone trying to fool others at the drags into thinking that he has a smaller capacity engine than he really does.  Whacko!!

lighten up!

regards
earlee.

no we're not setting govt policy but encouraging someone to change the numbers on their engine puts them in the same basket as car re-birthers in the eyes of the law.

if you prang into me, kill my family and suddenly find you have no third party personal insurance because your numbers don't match (and with cars involved in deaths, they PICK THE WHOLE CAR APART), i will hunt you down myself and personally make you suffer in a dark, dark basement under my house for the rest of your waking life.

changing the crank and rods is completely legal to get more capacity, and yet your taxable engine HP remains the same. you let the govt know what you've done in the modifications list and it all gets passed.

changing engine numbers is legal too - AFTER a roadworthy inspection.

re-birthing an engine is NOT legal.

The fact that we do not set government policy does not mean we endorse flagrant violation of it.  What we write here is in the public domain, under the auspices of the FE-FC Holden Car Clubs of Aust.  As Administrator, sometimes I have to come across a bit heavy to ensure that it is crystal clear to anyone reading that views expressed here are not necessarily those of the FE-FC Clubs, and should not be interpreted as such.

Personally, I think the Police and the various Transport Departments make life hard enough for street machiners as it is.  That is partially for safety reasons, but also because of the history of people like your mates wilfully breaking the rules.  The rules for light vehicle modifications are not that onerous, and are there predominantly for the safety of the driver and other road users.  And it's the safety of those other road users that most concerns me.  Your mates are welcome to kill or injure themselves, but when they drive an illegally registered car on a public road, they endanger everyone around them.  And it's an unfortunate fact of life that such illegal registration generally comes to light after an accident.

Hi again FCCOOL.

You mentioned that you didn't think you could get a 186 in an EH. I think you missed the point of my post.

The HP engine is an EH 179, it is not a 186.

GMH did not remanufacture engines, this was done by a host of outside companies. Carveth Sproule (now GEM) was probably the biggest.

If any of these aftermarket companies remanufactured a 179 to 186, which was very common, they quite often labelled them.

But the whole point is, the engine you have, left the factory as a 179 fitted to an EH in mid 1964.

Dr Terry.

well I am happy with that, 64 almost a grey, does any one know if the hp stood for anything or is it a letter code like 58=FC. ive heard about a million variations.

i thought the sill panel on early holdens was structural as the rear spring hanger chassis hangs off the sill inside panel, and on Hui it was a section of thick bog over 16 inches long with paper thin steel underneath when i ground the bog away./////As for grinding off the letters or numbers on a red block it would be unwise as when block is cast that part is not added to block but pushed out in the mould from the inside so when ground off that part of the block would actually be very thin,not sure of that but when i worked at a foundry in the 70's thats how everything was done.

Yes it is, that's why I disagreed with your previous post when you said bogging the sills wasn't illegal.

Hi Guyzzz
  Staying  out of the legalities of this discussion , the best Torana site for motor info is as follows :-

http://gmh-torana.imagineering.net.au/index.html

BUT don't expect quick replies like " The Premier Web Site "     (Ours of course  ;D)

  A fair bit of info there , including a few racing guys.

   Hope this helps the original question asked .

   Norm  :)