FE-FC Holden Discussion Forum

Hi All

I have started to drive the FC as much as I can. Just to work out any bugs. Yesterday the temp light came on after about 20 kilometres. No real signs of overheating. A couple of drips from the overflow. Today was the same, around 20 kilometres and the light came on again. Drove for a couple of kms more and parked it for around 1/2 hour. Temp light was off when I started it up and drove it home. I let it idle for around 20 minutes. Light finally came on but still no real signs that it is overheating. Not sure what to do. Have done the welsh plugs and head gasket. Flushed out the block. Has a new thermostat. I did put stop leak in the radiator just as a precaution (I don't really like using additives)
Could this be causing a problem? I have also thought about putting a temp gauge in but I would like to keep it as stock as I can. The only thing I have not done is the radiator. It is a little soft at the bottom corner but otherwise appears OK.
Any advice would be appreciated.

Regards
Mike

best thing is to get a new radiator and new hoses, what the water pump like ?

Sorry, forgot to mention that the hoses and waterpump are new as well. Thought maybe the sender was defective? What are the chances of that?

Mike

Flush all the stop leak out of the system as you may be restricting water flow somewhere and if your confident you have no leaks you don't need stopleak anyway.  The temp sender in the block could also be faulty so if you think everything else is fine replace this and see how it goes.
         If the light still comes on you must have a restriction somewhere slowing waterflow to the back of the motor.  Check or replace your radiator cap to ensure that the system is holding correct working pressure as this can also affect water flow as they are quite a low pressure system to begin with without losing any.

                                           Hope this helps
                                                    Frank

A little late now, but a good way to check your thermostat is to put it in some boiling water to see if it opens correctly before installing it.

Buy a cheap temp gauge and rig it up just to test the temp, or install it permanently in the engine bay.

This is a fairly common problem and I think it mostly stems from the temp sender being faulty coming on to early. The army FC had the same problem and I did all the things you have done and more - I was on the lookout for a NOS sender unit but sold the car before I found one.
Sometimes the light would come on and if I stopped turned the ignition off and then started it again the light would stay off - this indicated to me that the sender was playing up.

Ken

I agree with Ken, cheapest option would be to change your temp sender. But would be good to hook up a gauge to see what actual temperature its so called over heating at.
john

Thanks for the replies

I'm going to drain the system and remove as much of the stop leak and coolant as I can. Will be putting in water and inhibitor. I think I will try a temp gauge as well.

Regards
Mike

I have now drained the coolant and replaced it with water. I have also installed a gauge. It is running at 200° - 205°. This is on a 24° day.
I checked to see the temp range of the thermostat I put in (160°). I doubt that I put the thermostat in backwards but I will check that. Does
anyone have any other suggestions? The next step is a recore. The radiator is the only thing that has not been done.

Thanks

Mike

mc54 if you live in  Sydney I have a good radiator that has been recored you could try before you get your's done if you want to make 100% sure that is the problem  ......FC427......

Thanks, I really appreciate the offer but I was going to get this one redone sometime anyhow. It is a little soft in one corner and only has about a year or so left
in it. It is an original holden radiator - still has the metal tag with the part number on the core. I wonder if they will transfer it over to the new one.


Mike

A fairly rough way to test a radiator is to hold your hand over the bottom outlet and fill with water - release your hand and water should drain in a couple of seconds.

Ken

Have now put a recored radiator in and it is still running at 200°. The entire cooling system has been renewed.
Have installed a temp gauge and the thermostat opens at around 160°.
I'm going to check my timing but if I cannot get it to run any cooler will this temperature (200° to 205°) damage my engine?

Mike

Mike, does your car have a heater, if so it may be holding air in the heater core. The heater core will need bleeding to get all the air out of the heater core. i have found that the most common culprits for this is the Bosch and Nasco types that have the circular heater.

To bleed the system is fairly basic, there are no bleed valves in the heater to my knowledge, the quickest way to bleed it is to disconnect one side of the heater with the engine running. Make sure that the engine is not hot, preferable having sat overnight so that you do not get scalded from an engine that is at operating temperature. You will only need to disconnect it for a couple of seconds, the rush of water travelling through the heater will be enough to bleed it.

Running the car at 200 to 205 degrees is starting to stretch the friendship.

No, I don't have a heater.

Damn, I really thought that when I put the new radiator in the problem was fixed. I found a radiator shop that has what he calls "vintage" radiators.
They are radiators that he recored many years ago for cabs. The one I got has a Nacso core. Same top and bottom tanks but the core is a lot wider than the one that was in my car.
Probably the correct width which has added a litre or so to my cooling capacity. When I idled it in the garage after the radiator went in (for around 20 minutes) the temperature stayed at 180°. But when I drive it it goes up, the thing is that it doesn't go above or below 200 by more than a couple of degrees, like it's supposed to be at that temperature.

I'm running out of ideas.
Even though the thermostat is new, maybe I should put another one in.
I know the timing is fully advanced right now, I will look at that this weekend.
The valve that is in the exhaust is seized, but that hasn't just happened, it's been like that for a long time.
I thought about the head gasket, but no oil in water or water in oil.
What are the chances of an air lock in the block?

Regards
Mike
 

If the butterfly valve in the manifold is even partially stuck closed this wil make the engine run hotter, as it will create a restriction for the exhaust gases to escape.

Also having the timing "Fully Advanced" will also cause overheating issues. set the timing correctly and try again.

You state that you have just repaced the headgasket and other issues, was the engine overheating before the work was done, if so what were the symptoms.


To have a " blown" headgasket doesn't always mean that you will have water in the oil or vice versa. Headgaskets can leak from the combustion chamber to a water jacket, in between combustion chambers or externally.

To check for a leaking headgasket into the water jacket, I use a large funnel, that fits neatly into the radiator neck. I then fill the funnel, so that it is about 1/2 full and wait for any sign of air bubbles. A constant supply of air bubbles is normally a good indicator that you have a leaking headgasket, from a combustion chamber to a water jacket.

I took the head off to replace the welsh plug at the back of the head. I did notice that the old head gasket looked like it was burning between a couple of the cylinders. Unfortunately I cannot remember which ones.
The overheating started after the head was put back on, one of the new welsh plugs was weeping a little so I put some stop leak into the system. After a few trips out the temp light starting coming on. Might just be a coincidence.
I am going to redo the timing this weekend I will also do what you suggest with the funnel.

Mike

200 to 205 degrees doesn't leave you with a great deal of safety margin however.....

Water, at sea level, boils at 212 degrees.

An engine will still run with no damage at 212 degrees however the biggest problem is that water also boils at that point producing copious amouts of air in the process.The air in the system then pressurises the cooling system further to a point where it blows the water out of the system via the radiator cap and outlet pipe leaving , eventually , more air in the system than water.The temperature of the engine rises very quickly then to a point where engine reciprocating parts clearances are taken up by metal expansion and the engine will then seize up.Lubricating qualities are also compromised with heat rise as well and the combination of the two will damage an engine.

To give further safety margins manufacturers raise the boiling point of water in a cooling system by pressurising the water via a pressurised radiator cap.
From memory, an FE/FC original cap is around a 7 psi cap??
This will raise the boiling point of your system.Its been so long since I studied at Tech I can't remember the exact amount that a 1 psi pressure increase will give to the boiling point of water but I'm guessing that a 7 psi radiator cap would increase the boiling point to around the 225 degree range or so.
Addition of Radiator coolant  (Ethylene Glycol) based in a 33% concentration is said to also help raise boiling point temp by around 15 degrees or so ( from memory ).

So with a good working pressurised radiator cap and addition of radiator coolant (in theory) your engines boiling point "SHOULD" be around the 240 degree range or so.

In your case follow the check methods of various parts/procedures that the other blokes have mentioned above, some of them may be the cause or part cause of the problems you're having.

You haven't mentioned the water pump yet.Does it look and feel like its in a servicable condition?? ( I've seen water pump impellers separate from drive shafts in cheap aftermarket water pumps in some red motor engines before).

When you replaced the welch plugs and had the head off did you pressure wash the head cooling ports and flush all the accumulated crap from inside the block cooling passages??

I recently did so in a 149 red motor of mine and got more than a 2 litre ice cream container full of muddy rust,rust flakes,remains of two old steel welch plugs,silastic blobs and pieces of head gasket material that a previous repairer was too lazy to take precautions to stop the old head gasket scrapings from going down the cooling ports.This 149 ( which is bored to 167 ) is currently in my FB Holden with a standard grey radiator and I don't even run a cooling fan at all ( some around town driving and some highway driving).It ran fine in last weeks multiple 40 degree days and sat on 88 degrees C most of the time, no problems.I firmly believe if I hadn't removed the crap from inside the block and head prior to installing the 149 into the FB then I would definately be having some system problems with it.

All the above crap I found in the 149 would have reduced the cooling system capacity by 2 litres,created hot spots in the lower end of the block and helped to eventually block the radiator cooling tubes with the rust flakes and bits of silastic and gasket material eventually making their way to the radiator and blocking it.

I modified a Torana radiator cap years ago in my first car ( FC wagon with 161 red motor) that was still running the original grey radiator but had some cooling problems.From memory the Torana cap was rated at 13 psi as opposed to the 7 psi FC cap.This modification helped and the cooling system coped with the increased pressure cap.I also knocked out welch plugs in the 161 and found heaps of shit in the bottom of the block.Pressure washed it all out,replaced welch plugs and removed top and bottom radiator tanks,unblocked cooling tubes reassembled and never had another problem with overheating in the 3 years I had the car.

The water pump is new.

When I did the welsh plugs I did clean out the block as well as I could but did not have a pressure washer. Used a garden hose.
Should I be running coolant or water with inhibitor?
Apparently coolant has a lower boiling point but retains heat more than water.



Mike

       A garden hose is no where near as effective as a pressure washer when washing out blocks and heads.  also did you check that the holes in the new head gasket lined up with the water jacket holes in the block properly as this could also be effecting water flow if they are in the wrong spot or not thereat all.  I struck this a couple of years ago on a motor though it wasn't a grey. 

                               Regards
                                    Frank

Frank

The head gasket lined up fine. I guess what I'm going to do first is the timing. I know this is out. I am also going to make sure there is a good seal between the radiator cap and the radiator. Also going to check if the head gasket is leaking using the funnel as was suggested earlier. After that??????????

Thanks to everyone for the replies.

Regards
Mike

I would shroud your radiator.

Also do a check with no thermostat in place to see if the temp drops.

Use a filter in your top hose to catch any remaining debris in the system.

is your gauge calibration ok?

I did alot of testing on how to cool an engine. it's in another thread.

Cheers


Ed

Some info on overheating which may be useful.

http://fefcholden.org.au/forum/index.php/topic,12243.0.html

Ed

I have read that post a couple of times. I am going to try a few things in the next couple of weeks including removing the thermostat.
Although I am trying to keep this car stock, I want to drive it with some degree of confidence that it won't let me down.
I have installed an overflow bottle (temporary), the system is still a pressurised one, but I might change the cap to use the overflow and see if that helps.
If I cannot lower the temperature, I like the idea of a fan shroud.


Thanks

Mike

Mike,

Removing the thermostat will create a problem two ways, it will slow the ability of the car to get to operational temperature and if will impede the ablity of the water pump to create enough flow to circulate the water throughout the block.

If you wish to disable the thermostat, do so, as this will only inhibit the ability to get to operational temperature quickly. You will need to remove the centre of the thermostat and still retain the valve mounting plate to ensure that the water pumps ability to circulate water around the engine is retained.

Removing or disabling a thermostat will not cure any cooling problems other than a thermostat issue.

I have an old thermostat I can take the centre out of. I really don't think it is a thermostat problem because the thermostat is new. Not that it can't be a faulty part.
When I start the car cold I can idle it for 20 minutes and it will not go above 180°. The temperature rises when I start driving. Like I said, the timing is out and this is what I think the problem may be. Plus it is the easiest thing to check. If that is not the problem then I will move on from there. Appreciate all the advice.

Regards
Mike

i had a brand new thermostat that was stuck recently,but it ran too hot idling.so i dont think this is the problem
if its runnin too lean it could run hot,have ya changed ya carby, or jets ,idle mixture etc?
retard the timing abit  by ear also as harmonic balancers can slip.
just some suggestions if ya haven't tried em

sorry idle mix wont make a diff,cause it is idling fine.
of course

;D waynos grey engines timing marks are on the flywheel  ???.......FC427...........

 i'm a red motor man,still learnin about grey motors,sorry i am STUPID

I have been watching your problem for a while and throw in my recent experience.
I will start by saying what I should have done.
I SHOULD HAVE FITTED DAY ONE, THE IN LINE TOP HOSE FILTER, I DID NOT, AND THIS IS WHAT HAPPENED.

I had a high performance (1960's) straight copper cored radiator that kept my 155c inch grey motor cool, and then kept a 202 red cool in the 1970's.  Never a cooling problem.
Fitted an old 186 in 2006, had the radiator cleaned. Ran about 500kms and it started to over heat. Radiator shop flushed radiator, again ok for 1000km, then same old problem.

The cause: old blocks continue to rust and the aluminium alloy water pump and other casting also continue to rust. The radiator core is finer than these rust particles, so slowly but surely the radiator gets clogged and looses its efficiency. Doesn't take much, and you have big overheating problem.

NOW: with top hose filter, problem solved. BUT you would not believe the volume of crap that builds up every 1000km.

IT APPEARS TO ME THAT IT SHOULD BE ALMOST MANDATORY TO USE ONE OF THESE FILTERS, AND IN FACT YOU ARE MAD IF YOU DONT.
(IF THE ENGINE HAS BEEN STORED, AND IS USED INTERMITTENTLY, THE PROBLEM IS WORSE)
WE BLAME THE POOR OLD RADIATOR, ITS NOT THE PROBLEM, BUT WEARS ALL THE CRAP (SO TO SPEAK)

I learn't the hard way.
Geoff_K

Thanks to all the replies I have a number of things to look at and I am confident one of them will correct the problem.
But you make a good point. Where can I get one of these. Repco?

Mike

Any of the automotive specialty shops such as Repco, Autobarn, Supercheap etc will have a water filter that you can fit into your top radiator hose,

http://www.mako.com.au/html/tefba_filter.html

If you have an original grey motor & top hose I don't think the hose has a long enough straight section to fit this into, I purchased one years ago & still have it in the bag it came in
Gary

Thanks Gary, I'll check that out before I buy one.

I have run across perhaps the problem, as I said before, I was going to reset my timing. I'll be damned if the timing mark hasn't moved. When I first started the car many months ago I could not find the timing mark. I found that if I advanced the timing and then revved the engine it came into view. I figured that the distributor was out a tooth. So when I did the head gasket I realigned the distributor to where I thought it should be. I am sure that the mark was at the pointer while idling. Today I went and hooked the timing light up and same thing. No mark unless I advanced and revved. I cannot see how in the hell the mark could have moved so therefore i must have screwed up, somehow.

So correct me if I'm wrong, if the distributor is fully advanced and the engine is revving, the vacuum advance is advancing the timing even more. This would mean that my timing is retarded, probably by quite a bit, and I'll have to move the distrubtor over a tooth (again).

Mike

 Mike Think you worked it out ....sounds like 1 tooth out as you said  put it on TDC and time it again, the performance should be much better also  .......FC427.........

And with the timing one tooth out, when reset, it should run much cooler.

When re installing the distributor dont forget to turn the oil pump drive so that when the distributor fits back in the oil pumpm drive is in the right palce

I had the same problem. I had some engine work done before the Adelaide Nationals. First drive out, (Canberra-Adelaide & back) it started running hot,but luckily didn't overheat. By the time we got home I had to fill the radiator with each fuel stop. Flushed the radiator professionally, put a stocking in the top hose for a while & I haven't had a problem since. Just remember to check the filter regularly.
Engine shops nowadays don't seem to flush the engine of waste after any machining work, this is what my problem was.
Colin,

I send all my engine blocks to REDI STRIP to get non caustic washed before they go to the Machine shop and they come back spotless inside and out ,far better than the Hot tank they use at the Machine Shop .......FC427.........

Gotta agree. ::)

Hot tank is good for removing engine paint,dirt ,sludge,grease,oil etc but isn't particulary good at removing deposits in the block cooling passages and machine swarf,filings etc.

Hot tank really is only a passive clean up so the machinist has a clean engine to work on and repaint.Unless it is thoroughly cleaned up with pressure washing after machine work done and prior to assembly then there will be the above mentioned things still floating in cooling passages/oil passages.I've seen the results many times of failed engines years ago when I was on the spanners from so called professional engine reconditioners that should have been more professional and taken better efforts to thouroughly clean up an engine before assembly.

Thats why I say the only way to completely flush out the shit within an older engines cooling passges is to remove all welch plugs and pressure wash the crap out.

Hey All

I have tried numerous times to move the distributor over 1 tooth. It ends up either on one side of the high point of the cam or the other side. Which means to make the car run even half decent I have to turn the distributor fully advanced or retarded. The only thing I can figure out that may be wrong is the indicator is the incorrect spot on the shaft.

Is there a mark on the shaft or under the distributor to line it up or something to tell that it is in the correct position. I am out of ideas as to what else could be wrong.

Regards

Mike

Have looked at the distributor on the bench. My guess is the centre of the marker (TDC on the gauge) should line up to the centre of the notch at the top of the shaft. The one the rotor goes on. If I'm correct, this would explain why I couldn't time the engine no matter what I tried. It also explains why the previous owner garaged this car because of too many problems. There has been a lot of this sort of thing. Wipers wired in backwards and 180° out so that when I got them to park it was on the bonnet.

Mike

I am going to redo everything step by step out of the manual. I think I know what I have missed.

Mike

Its been a while since i have done a head gasket on a grey but cant you put them on upside down which covers two water jacket holes.

Cheers Neil

I don't think I made a mistake with the head gasket but anything is possible.

I have never been able to line up the timing mark and yesterday was no different. I reread the manual and I think I have it.

1. Line up the timing mark (ball) on the flywheel with the marker on the housing so the piston is TDC on #1 cylinder compression stroke.
2. Insert distributor so it lines up a close as you can get it to the #1 position on the distributor housing making sure that it is in the oil pump.
3. Tighten the bolt that goes through the gauge into the block, making sure it is centered.
4. Loosen the clamp under the distributor that hold the gauge onto the shaft and turn the whole distributor until the points are fully opened on #1 position. Tighten.
5. Start car and it will run perfectly.

Mike

Just a follow up to the overheating.
New radiator didn't fix the problem. Resetting the timing to the correct position didn't fixed the problem. Have removed the thermostat and as was earlier suggested put in one with the centre removed. No longer overheating.
I can't say that the problem is fixed, only bypassed, but that will do just fine for now.


Thanks to everyone for their input.

Mike

Mike, If I was you I would still be a little concerned about sludge remaining in the back of the block. Your description of cleaning the block with a garden hose sounds like it may not have done the job adequately.

When I clean a block in the car, I remove the welsh plugs on BOTH sides of the engine and remove the drain cock on the lower passenger side. Using a high pressure washer and a long piece of wire, I make sure that the passages around each cylinder (especially between 5 and 6 & behind 6) are clear and that water flows freely from the drain cock hole.

Water usually contaminates the lifter area so protecting this area from water ingress is vital and an oil change is probably a good idea afterwards.

Ken

Ken

When I took the welch plugs out there was a bit of sludge but not a huge amount. This is a rebuilt engine, although I'm not sure exactly how long ago. In hindsight I probably should have rented a pressure washer but I was on a bit of a time limit as it was not my garage.
I still have the one welch plug to do that is behind the gearbox. When I eventually do this I will have to try to clean the block out some more. Unfortunately I live in a unit which really puts a limit on what I can do here. There is no running water down stairs. They removed the handles from the faucets so no one can wash their cars. I may have to do it at a friends house, if I can arrange this then I will get a pressure washer and hopefully do a decent job. For now though at least I can drive it a bit. Just out of curiosity I may put another thermostat in. The one I removed was new but that does not mean it can't be defective.

Regards
Mike

Absolutely - thermostats seem to be one of those items which can be faulty on occasions.  I take your point on the sludge factor - I would think that you are probably OK as is and don't need to reflush - most of my experience has been with engines that have not been cleaned for a long while. Your recoed engine should not have built up huge amounts of gunk.
On another point - I have had experience with 2 rebuilt engines having "hot" problems even though everything was right. It also seems that some engines after boring, run hot no matter what you do :P
My 3 door FE was a case in point - it ran hot all the time but never boiled. The engine was bored to the max to retain original engine number and in the end I wished I didn't use it.

Ken