FE-FC Holden Discussion Forum

Anyone know much about fuel injection?
I am trying to piece together a Triple side-draught Stromberg TBI injection system.
There is a bloke in the States that has been doing this conversion for dual carb triumphs with great success.
So I am sourcing the carbs and manifold locally, then buying the injector adaptors, injectors and throttle position sensor from the US.
What else am I going to be needing? obviously there is the computer, but which one?
How does the computer work? I thought for normal EFI the injectors are fired just before the "suck" stroke (suck, push, bang, blow) so with only three injectors will they be firing twice as much?
Any help appreciated  :-\

what engine are using the cheapest way to do this use motorcycle throttle bodies kawasaki zx 1200 ones are good and adapt to manifold to use a computer system to pulse injectors other than batch fire is expensive would look at megasquirt site for ideas just google megasquirt

OOOOOH stinky EFI sounds nice mate ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

dont know too much about EFI stinky but im learning real quick.
so i'm more than happy to help where i can.

had a thought re manifolds, what about using a manifold like mine from a VK but cut down and modded and mount TB's on that, and use the 12 port 202 head. you would still get the tripple TB look but have a seperate injector for each port been thinking that unless you do something like direct port injection you may run into problems with the siamese ports in the read head. it can be done but it would be very expensive!

as far as computers go you could possibly just use the delco 808 from camiras and vn/vp commodore these are the same ECU as used by a lot of earlier V6 yank cars and when used with kalmaker software may allow you to do this setup. kalmaker  www.kalmaker.com.au  have written codes to allow the delco to be reprogramed, this may be another option.
the guys on the kalmaker forum  http://kalmaker.hotrodhandbooks.com.au   in particular hooter and stormtrooper are the ones in the know.... alan (hooter) runs injection connection in perth...

from what i have heard megasquirt ecu is a DIY build, not overly complicated though and i think a kit could set you back about $300. a delco 808 you could pick up for $20-$50 and find someone in S.A who runs and tunes kalmaker to reburn the chip? and if you know people with a dyno it gets cheaper still to tune :D
 
Ed is the other one to ask as he helped me change my mind over to EFI ( thanks again Ed  ;) ;) ::)  ;D )

i will try and dig up some of the websites i have tucked away for you to research, i will email over to you.
also try and grab a book written by choco munday on elctronic fuel management its available from graffitti publications. this will help you understand what your up for. choco is on the ozrodders forum. he knows his elctronics and EFI......

let me know what else i can help with, if anything..

cheers
dean

Stinky,

you will need a few other inputs to run EFI.

CTS = coolant temp sensor
igntion / distributor sensor - can use a Hall effect type setup in the dizzy rather than a crank angle sensor (to determine when the injectors fire) - ask Smithy how.
MAP = Manifold absolute pressure to determine engine load.  
IAC = Idle air control  - a solenoid in the tb which adjusts air flow for smooth idle.
IAT = Intake Air temp sensor - as the name suggests measures intake air temp.  according to temp, the injectors will pulse to compensate.
O2 sensor in exhaust.
ECU
Ignition module.

Another method to determine engine load is to use a MAF (mass air flow) sensor which meaures the flow of air into the motor. Usually a very fine wire mounted across the Throttle body intake.  For your purpose a doubt MAF would be suitable since you have 3 TB's each with individual filters.

EFI isn't that complicated. To put it simply it uses a variety of sensors which feedback to the main ECU which then adjusts fuel pulse to try to achieve the stoichiometric Air:fuel ratio of 14.7:1.

Bear in mind the stoich ratio is only ever achieved at idle or lean cruise mode.  at WOT it will be less due to the system pumping fuel in to accelerate the engine.  This is true for carby or EFI.

The ECU then accomodates for different load conditions (eg idle or WOT) and again the injectors are pulsed accordingly. Engine loads are monitored using vacuum.

factors such as engine temp, air temp etc are all factored in to try optimise engine function.

The settings are made by programming the "chip" for the variety of conditions.

there is also sequential and batch fire systems where, as the name suggests, the injectors fire sequentially or as a batch.  Apparently there is no power advantage in a sequential system, only emissions advantage.

which computer?  as thee suggests look up mega squirt for a DIY system.
Delco 808 is what I used (commodore etc).
there are heaps of aftermarket setups too, wolf, haltech etc.
check which sensors and type of systems they use.

HTH

Cheers

Ed

he he he been waiting for you to come in Ed,
we may have another one crossing over ;D ;D
you must have been writing yours the same time as i was......

Hi Stinky,

FCCool asked in another thread what was under the bonnet of my FC (towing a vintage caravan). I am running a VK 202 efi, which was totally rebuilt last Christmas with HQ flat-top pistons and a mild Wade cam.

I got hold of a doner car and pretty much transferred everything out of it including the original computer and GMH factory extractors (which did have to be modified to clear the subframe).

The motor it replaced was red 202, so engine mounts were not an issue. As has been discussed on other threads, the fire wall was indented about 20mm to allow for the intake manifold. The only other modification was to cut and widen the radiator support panel to allow for a crossflow radiator which was ordered with the dimensions I required via fax from Aussie Desert Coolers in Melbourne. This replaced the original radiator and thermo fan and the motor now runs the standard Commodore fan. Overheating has not been an issue since, and included towing a caravan across the Nullabor in 40 degree heat (just prior to Nationals at Mt Gambier) and running an airconditioner.

(http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k228/daggsey/FCconversion056.jpg)

(http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k228/daggsey/FCconversion047.jpg)

(http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k228/daggsey/FCconversion081.jpg)

(http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k228/daggsey/FCconversion082.jpg)

This car is fitted with a 5 speed Celica gearbox, a 3:08 diff, 72litre HJ ute fuel tank with a HQ fuel sender (which will be read by the FC fuel gauge) and cruises at 110kph at about 2200rpm. I am getting about 20mpg towing a 12' caravan that weighs about 1200kgs (loaded).

A VH brake power booster just fits (the VK was too wide) between the clutch reservoir and the inner guard and has been modified to a dual-circuit system.

The fact that this car was already registered with a 202 (3.3litre), it was simply a matter of advising the Dept of Transport (WA) of the change of engine number and no engineering was required. If I had gone down the path of a V6, that would have been a different matter.

In case you wanted to know, yes, the black motor was painted grey ;D ;D ;D

I believe that it may have been the only straight 6 efi motor at the Nats (that I could see), but someone might correct me on that.

So far I have travelled from WA to Dalby in Qld (via Mt Gambier) towing a caravan and the only problem I have had was a broken valve spring in Eden NSW. These were all brand new and apparently could happen to any vehicle at any time, even brand new cars.

Cheers
Daggsey58

With your brake booster did you use the commodore mount and did you need to cut the pushrod down in length
regards fatboy

hi daggsey, nice swap mate and with air con too ;) ;)
ive done/ doing a similar swap but am just using the intake manifold with a range of other bits and pieces from VP through to camira onto a 186

just curious how you got away without getting it engineered, what changes did you do to the fuel tank,delivery system?
i have fitted a VN tank to mine but because i have changed the fuel delivery, carb to efi and the tank i now have to get it re-engineered.
have you found any problems with the cold air intake, as i am at this stage and not sure where to mount the filter, was thinking up higher or cutting a section from radiator dupport panel.

Fatboy- i am using a vh booster in my setup and with the bracket from memory i just cut 10mm from my old one ( was HT-K-G) re-welded and inverted it. was a lucky fit, there is about 20mm clearance between the booster and clutch master :P

cheers
dean


but not next nationals, i hope ;) ;) ;)

Hi Fatboy,

Used the Commodore bracket and pushrod, but did have to drill new holes to accommodate the bracket. The only small drama is that the Commodore booster normally sits at an angle, so consequently, because the booster sits flat against the FC firewall the fluid reservoir is now sitting at an angle. I hunted around for another reservoir without any joy, so I just keep my eye regularly on the fluid level, mainly to make sure it doesn't leak out the front.

A couple of other points worth mentioning if anyone is considering this conversion......

1. Battery had to be located in boot because of space issues

2. Couldn't use the original Commodore airbox because of space issues, so airflow meter is fitted to inner guard and we had to make up a system using one of those wanky airpods. The flexible tube (brilliant invention) goes from the airflow meter to the chrome tube which you can see goes over the engine to the throttle body.

3. Have used all of the emission tubes, vacuum hoses etc which the General fitted originally, mainly because these are necessary for the computer. The charcoal cannister is fitted underneath the wheel arch.

4. Original wiring harness was used, but stripped out all the unnecessary bits (dash etc).....had to get hold of a VK efi wiring diagram to make the job easier...almost impossible without it

Because the Celica gearbox and bellhousing were already in the car, the choice of the straight 6 over v6 was really a matter of convenience for me, and like I said earlier, less hassles for registration purposes (in WA anyway). Similarly, the 202 over the VL Nissan motor was easier to fit (and who wants a Japanese motor in a Holden anyway ;D ;D ;D).

Anyone considering this conversion should grab a VK now.....they are getting harder to find as wreckers are generally getting rid of this stuff to the metal crushers......and of course, the majority of VK's were carburetted.

Smithy,
I was lazy......I read earlier posts on the site about converting 186's etc to efi, and thought, the easiest way is to get a 202 efi....hence the VK.
In WA, we are still lucky enough not to have annual inspections ;D ;D ;D. I did query the swap, and was told that as long as the engine size was no greater than what it was registered with (3.3 litre), engineering did not apply....it was just a matter of recording the engine number. No doubt, if I had asked someone else in the Transport Department, I may have got a different answer :P :P :P. This car is an ex-Canberra car and was inspected 3 years ago when it was first brought into WA.

The choice of the HJ ute fuel tank (could have been HQ through to HZ, but that's what I could get at the time) was because it is similar in size to the original FC.....had to cut about 30mm out of the floor at the back and add about 40mm to one side. The FC fuel gauge reads quite accurately, but you need a HQ fuel sender for this to happen. Had to have a fuel return line outlet welded in to the tank and the fuel filler moved. Luckily, the VK fuel pump is external, so that is what was used.

As far as the aircond. goes, I did make an enquiry on the forum, but got little response (obviously not an everyday addition ;D), so made up the system myself, underdash (actually, under the glovebox) using the VK compressor.
 
Cheers
Daggsey58

very nice work daggsey, and im sure you notice the difference in towing ;) ;)
a couple of other points i can also add to for anyone else comtemplating

with my booster bracket i already had holes drilled and set for the HK booster hence it was easier and cleaner for me to just cut the bracket down, but i needed to turn it upside down for it to line up with bolt holes on the booster.

for the resevoir i found that a later model magna ( no idea model) has less of an incline and is exactly the same size, i trimmed about 10mm from one of the tubes though. ( 99% certain it will seal ok)

because i am using the 186 block ( with just the 12 port head from 202) i wont be required to run emission lines etc, and because the system is a MAP not MAF and the ECU is from a VP commodore (delco 808, same as camira) as is the throttle body i only need to run MAP, O2, Temp, MAT sensors. the use of this ECU also allows me to reprogram the ECU. i removed the vac advance from the VC elec dissy and locked the weights off, and am using the ignition control module from camira. this controls spark timing as apposed to using the crank angle sensor

wiring harness is from JE camira with 2 extra injectors wired in, simpler and less wires than VK, i know what you mean about wiring diagrams, i used 3 for mine VK, VN and Camira and combined everything ;D ;D but had some headaches too, and have used the wiring junction from an EA falcon n(only ford part worth taking ;D :D ) to join the loom and enable easy engine work

the fuel tank swap to VN ( what i could get my hands on) was basically the same with the exception, i cut the entire boot floor out ( no spare wheel well) the had new sections welded in, and had to modify and swap fuel inlet to keep with original position, but interesting point with the HQ sender reading accurately, wonder if i can modify and use this for mine otherwise i will be getting the commodore sender modified with correct 0-30 ohm winding.

i will be using a charcol cannister from a VS mounted behind front guard as they are the smallest i have seen, from holden anyway.
( the holden wrecker lets you walk through the racks to browse)

but you are right about the VK setup, for simplicity and speed of conversion what you have done is bar far the easist way to do it, a lot less stuffing around, but ive never been known to do things the easy way ::) ::) ::) :-\

and from what i have discussed with people in the EFI business the shape of the intake manifold on the VK is by far the best design giving heaps of low to mid range torque. and you can also use the manifold and convert to run gas and this is very effictive.

the wreckers i use has about 8 efi manifolds just sitting around and they do pop up on evil bay from time to time, you can pick them up dirt cheap $25 for mine ( ebay special) up to $150 again ebay i think wreckers are around the $100 mark. the hardest thing for me to find was the camira engine harness ???

cheers
dean


hmm air con in the future might have to consider it but might not be enough room for the blower ;D ;)

Hey Daggsey,

I reckon yours was the only EFI Holden motor at the Nats...
spent some time admiring it too.. nice work, love the AC setup.

any pics of your EFI setup Dean?
interested to see it.

Cheers

Ed

hi Ed not completely ready yet, effcee has my intake manifold retapping one of the outlets for my MAT sensor but will be getting some soon, once manifold is back on i will be setting up accelerator cable and heater tap, then fuel lines..

there are still some pics floating around in my updates
http://fefcholden.org.au/forum/index.php/topic,13185.0.html

but not much has changed in a while, just nutting out a few small issues.

dean

Hi Ed and others,

As I said earlier, the airconditioning unit I fitted was basically made up of components that I bought. The unit itself is an underdash that is heating/cooling. I looked through a catalogue at Ashdown-Ingrams (a division of Repco) in Perth (I think they have branches in other states) and picked a condensor with the right outlets and the right dimensions to sit between the radiator and grill, bearing in mind that the grill actually sits at an angle.

Because of a console that is fitted in the car, the unit is mounted under the glovebox. Unfortunately this meant that I have lost the fresh air lever. The heater cable goes where the choke cable used to be (no need for that now ;D ;D ;D ;D).

I originally looked at fitting an aircon unit out of a japanese car because I thought they would be smaller.......wrong! Because most Jap cars have east west engines, they generally have a huge area under the dash and no hump in the firewall like the FC. Consequently, it was almost impossible to find something secondhand that would work.

By going the way I did and with my mechanic mate who got trade discount ;D ;D, the all up cost of fitting the air/heat with brand new parts (including the compressor) and getting it gassed with the new gas, was about $1000.

And because the cabin of an FC is relatively small, the cooling does the job. Tinting also helps.

Daggsey 

hi daggsey, sounds like you did your homework.
wish i did a bit more before commiting to certain changes :-\ :-\
the blower i was refering to is not air con related ;) ;) ;)


but i have seen a system from i think it was HQ/ HJ which was a flatter unit that sat under the dash, not 100% sure on all other components

cheers
dean

There was one other issue, but we sorted it eventually.....the bottom airconditioner pulley hit the sway bar (which is bigger than normal). We had to pull it forward and block it down under the chassis to give clearance.

In regards to the efi system, as someone else (I think Ed) said some time ago, once you've got it working, you'll never go back to carbies......trust me!! ;D ;D ;D. Having said that, I am carrying a spare EFI module and fuel pump ;D.

yep that was me ;D  and i still stand by it. I'd like to EFI a grey motor.
I heard of a company with a well advanced R&D project in LPG injection however they need financial backing to get the project to market... An Australian company no less.

Cheers

Ed

How much do they need....?About 30 grand....You should be good for the money ED... ;D

you'd still need a car to stick it on.  :P

Daggsey your extractors are they the GM stainless steel type and how far do they have to be bent to clear the subframe Thanks ......FC427......