FE-FC Holden Discussion Forum

Well it seems winter has arrived and as such the brakes are that little bit more dodgy.  My last EK had a HR front with Torana disks :) but I read now that you can get a kit to fit the disks staight onto the standard Kingpin Front end.  Two questions:
1. Has sanyone used one of these kits and are they really trouble free fitting?
2. What is so bad about the knig pin setup that I should be aware of and would make me want to change to HR front? ???

Cheers,

Mike

Mike,

this is a good question. I have asked a number of people and never got a satisfactory answer. It seems to me that it is much simpler and cheaper to leave the kingpin f/e in place unless there is a compelling reason to go to an HR f/e. This is especially true if your f/e is in good nick. Changing the drag ling to an HR one is a good idea though. It is relatively cheap and takes a lot of play out of the steering.

I'd be interested in comments on the disc brake conversions for kingpin front ends because I am also contemplating one of these at the moment.

David

To date I have found out that Hopper Stoppers do not actually make a kit, they use CRS kits and they are $150 delivered and include bolts spacers and instructions.  Allowing about $200 for Torana disks, calipers and new bits required (hoses etc), plus the cost of a booster and proportioning valve (I don't know how much these would cost) it is not alot cheaper than grabbing a whole converted front end second hand.  It just seems easier and the condition of a second hand front end is always unknown.

Has anyone fitted or is using one of these conversions?  What do they think?

While this is on the board, has anyone got any comments regarding Torana Vs Comodore disks?  Will any Commodore disks fit 13 inch rims?  If I am going to use an adapter on my Kingpins, would I be better to go for Comodore rather than Torana?

Is there anyone in WA that has a set of disks and calipers (probably Torana?) that are in working order for sale and a VH44 remote booster?

Mike

I am curious on this topic as well if someone has done it
I saw a conversion done recently on a AP3 Chrysler Royal with king pins. Looked real neat and the owner reckoned it was so much better.



ChrisB   8)

Well it's decided - dictated by dollars.  I just got the bargain of the year.  Picked up a set of adapters (unused) along with two complete LX torana disk and  caliper setups, one of which has a set of calipers that have just been rebuilt (as yet still unused), a set of new pads, new bearings and new hoses (all still in the box), all for $200!!
I can try and get sme pictures to post if anyone is interested.  I still need a VH44 booster though.  

If anyone has fitted one of these before, please let me know whether it is better to mount them forward or rearward, they fit both ways.

Cheers,

Mike

I have fitted a king pin kit to an FC at Hoppers Stoppers and I have to say I was less than impressed with it.  It does not fit up easily and my opinion is that whilst the conversion seems strong enough to mount the components, I think the king pins are not up to the extra twisting load imposed by the disc brakes.
I think that the king pins and top pivots will wear more quickly than previously.
Commodore discs are superior to Torana discs but do not fit in 13 inch wheels.
HR front end is a better scenario in my opinion as the unit has ball joints and a far stronger body to it.

Ken

Ken, did you fit the calipers to the front or rear?

Mike

Mike....although I'm no brake expert, I tend to agree with Ken.....afterall, if keeping kingpins and converting it all was the cheapest and the best way to get discs, then why do the majority of people scour the earth for HR front ends ?    
They obviuosly use them because they are far stronger and superior to the old kingpin front ends.

It makes sense, that if your braking power is increased then so should be the components that the brake hang off.......it's a bit like engine building.....there's only so much you can beef up the top end of a motor, before you have to beef up the bottom end to cope with the extra power !

Not sure if you got my email the other day...but there is a fully complete factory HR Disc Brake Front end available for $650.

It's not mine, but belongs to a holden nut that I know.

It's still in the car a t present, but will remove for anyone who wishes to buy it !

Cheers

and good luck with whatever way you choose !

Mark

Why change the drag link to HR as suggested by Dave?  Can anyone tell me the difference and what it does please?

Hey how do I show Dave's comments in this post  in a little box for reference like some people do?

gday mike.
my regular mechanic had concerns with stress loads with disc brakes on the kingpin frontend so i opted for the hr conversion with torana discs. the car handles and corners a lot better on the country roads and stops smoother straighter and quicker. talk to blown fc,he did my conversion- the travelling to mandurah is worth it. next trip i'm hoping mark can sort out the column shift for the auto.
                      surferboy 8) 8) 8)

Click on the ["] Quote link at the top right of the post in question, rather than the "Reply" link at top/bottom.

cheers
RET

Help....................... ???

I fitted up my conversion but the king pin steering arm looks like it is going to rub on the disks where it arches out towards the wheels to bolt the old drums on.  Does anyone have a copy of the instructions for a king pin conversion that they can scan and email to me, or alternatively are there any other steering arms that don't have the arches that I can use, HR, Torana, EH??.  I have emailed Ken with some questions but just dropped this message on to cover my bases, I was hoping to be back on the road today - not looking good.

Ken was right, my current opinion is that this adapter kit is worth less than the steel it was cut from.

The steering arm is in the way of the disks, the calipers hit the kingpin and grinding is required to get enough clearance to bolt them up and although I have just found that the new pads I have are the wrong ones, I am sure they would not fit anyway as the clearances to the disk look wrong.

Bear in mind I have no instructions but even so, the concept is simple enough.  I will keep trying to fit it as I am too far gone to turn back (my beautiful tight kingpins have been drilled out and tapped already), in the mean time tomorrow I go and start scavenging parts to build a HR front end!!!

Hi Burnsy.
where are you located as i have a HRdisc brake frontend with an EH outrigger fitted for FE -EH conversion,it needs engine mounts welded in and i need the HR discs and stub axles for another car,but you can get them or torana ones easy enough. i want $130 for front end but im in Queensland so really depends where you are as freight will be expensive outside QLD.

Thanks Nicko, I am in WA so not really worth it.  I have access to HR drum frontends and EH outriggers for nothing so I think I will take it from there.  

Was hoping for a quick changeover to disks so I will persue the kingpin option further before investing $$ as I have everything and most of it is bolted up.

no worries,i am following this thread closely as my FE has worn king pins and i have a new set ready to fit,as i dont realy want to change front ends but adding discs would be nice,

This is becoming an epic but I will keep the info flowing as some seem interested.

I have one side fitted up.  I mounted the calipers to the rear as this was the only way I could get the clearance.  I had to grind the edge off the rear side of the top of the king pin as the caliper sits right up against it.  The problem I have now is that with the new disk pads in, the calipers lock the disk if I try to tighten up the front caliper section that holds the pads, to overcome this I am going to have to use spacers to bring the front of the caliper forward about 2mm allowing the disk to turn.  

I still have the steering arm prblem and I am loath to grind back them back as I would need to take at least 6-8mm off them to clear the disks so tomorrow I will try using spacers to move them inward and also see if HR drum steering arms will fit.

I am slightly happier with the kit now :-/ but not dancing around happy.  

Nicko, if you are going to consider doing this, before you fit the new king pins have the back of the spindle plate machined flat around the top two holes.  The bottom ones should already be done where the steering arm fits but the tops arn't and I think this is where all my grief is originating from.  If this was done, it should allow the caliper adapter plate to not only sit more flush, but it would also bring it out slightly and may eleviate the problem I have with the pads causing the disks to lock up when they are tightened up.  I will probably have a go at grinding mine flat tomorrow, but if they are off the car have them machined.

Also, the kit came with 7/16 unc bolts, throw them out and go with unf, Holden used fine thread in the first place for a reason.

Sorry to hear your having these dramas, a set of instructions would of been good.

Curiously watching from afar !!!!


Cheers ChrisB  8)

They are fitted ;D now I just have to sort out my rear end - I hate not being able to drive my car!

I fitted the adapter kit with the kingpins on the car, if you plan on fitting them and you have your kingpins off, do the machining work outlined below BEFORE FITTING THE KINGPINS but I would not say it is so hard as to be worth removing the kingpins for the job alone.

Instructions:
1.  Drill out all four backing plate holes on the spindle to allow for a 7/16 (suggest unf not unc) tap - consult a chart to determine drill size, this is the tap size.

2.  If you have the kingpins off the car, have the back of the top holes machined flat to the same thickness as the bottom holes (that are already machined on the standard item), machine as large an area as is required so the adapter plate will sit flush when lined up with the holes.

If you are doing it on the car, use a small angle grinder with a thin inox disk to slice the back off as best you can to achieve the same result.

3.  Fit up the adapter and see if the calipers will clear the top of the kingpin, if not, you will need to slice/grind the edge off the rear top of the kingpin to allow the caliper to bolt up.

4.  Bolt it all up on the car and check clearances.

5.  Fit the spacer in front of the rear bearing race on the disk rotor (this means the spacer goes in before the race goes in).

6.  Bolt the disk on (you will need to take the pad holder thingy - for want of a better name - off of the calipers to do this).  Drill the front of the spindle to allow for a split pin to be fitted in the castle nut (the spacer has moved the hub out so you can't use the original hole).

7.  Fit the disk pads and check that there is enough clearance to allow the disks to be turned in the calipers.  If you machine the back of your kingpins down as described above I think the clearances will be OK.  

As I had to grind mine back whilst they where in place, I could not get them down to the same thickness as the factory machined bottom holes and as such had to fit a spacer (1-2mm) between the caliper and the pad holder to allow enough pad clearance otherwise my disks were locked against the outer pad.

8. Obtain steering arms from an EJ (EH is probably the same?) to use in place of your originals as these do not protrude out to allow the old drums to be bolted to them like the earlier models.  Fit them up, you may still need to grind a millimetre or so off the outermost section to clear the disk rotor.

8.  Check everything again!

I am no mechanic or automotive engineer so this is just my take on it.  Although I found the modification to be trying because I had no idea what I needed to do, I just had the parts as purchased from a guy in the paper and no instructions, I would do it again with the above info. ;)

I have taken some pictures along the way, once they are developed I will post them for reference as my mechanical language is limited and it may not be clear what I mean.  Email me if you have any specific queries and we can have a chat.

Glad to hear you are making progress. Thanks for sharing some of the problems you have encountered and how you have overcome them. Should be very useful for anyone else doing this conversion.

I just wanted to respond to a question earlier in the thread about the benefit of HR drag links compared with the originals. The HR drag links take a lot of play out of the steering because there are ball joints linking the drag link to the tie rods, pitman arm and idler arm. In the original these unions are spring loaded ball and cup arrangements that are not as inherently rigid. To change over you need the HR pitman arm as well as the drag link (probably idler arm too).

David

Sorry  I have been away for a while, yes calipers go to the back, spacers are required for calipers and steering arms.  You can use EH kingpins (this is what I did) as they already have the machining done on the back of the 2 top holes.
You now see what I mean about difficult to fit.
I will try most things, but I consider this one not worth the effort.

Regards  Ken

Thanks Ken, are you saying that even with the machined kingpins from a EJ/H you still would need to fit a spacer between the actual caliper body and the pad holding bit?  If so, what would you say to having the face of the adapter plate machined down about 1mm where the caliper mounts onto it to move the caliper out enough to eliminate the spacer?  This would allow new disk pads to be fitted without any spacers (a standard washer currently does the trick).

I have managed to eliminate spacers from the steering arms by using the EJ arm and taking about 1mm of the outer most section.

Cheers,
Mike

Hello Nicko
I am pulling the front end out of my FC shortly.  It has a LH Torana f/e that was poorly done.  It will need some work to make it ok and then I will have to look at steering etc.  I am curious whether the HR front end you mentioned would be an easy fit for a novice and less work than what I have got now?  If this is the case I would be interested in the front end you have.  I am at Morayfield, south of Caboolture. I am just finishing a HR rear end to go under the FC and slowly getting some bits and pieces together.  Any advice would be appreciated.

JimmyMac

hi,the front end we have is well done all you have to do is cut off engine mounts and move them to where your engine mounts need to be,you would be able to change the discs ,callipers and axles in to it and your nearly there,depends on whats wrong with yours as to wether its worth swapping,do you have some photo's of bad spots you can email to me .so you and i can work out wether mine is a better propersition.
reguards Nick
p.s bolting in new front end is an easy job.

G`day Burnsy, this is probably way too late to be of any help but may be handy for future reference,but front discs and calipers from a 4 cylinder commodore can be handy for early model swaps. They will fit behind a 13 inch rim and are the same stud pattern as proper holdens.

Hey Nick - Won't be able to get pics until the weekend. Do you have an email address to send to?   I do know that the front bar on the steering rack has been cut and welded, and looks ugly - probably illegal?
JimmyMac

see the little icons on lower left of my replies? hold mouse over them and you will see one is (instant message)and the middle one is (email),you will find this on most peoples posts unless they wish to remain private

Burnsy yes that's right, the only advantage of the EH king pin is the machining on the back.
I don't see a problem with taking 1 mm off the plate.

Ken

hi guys, on talking about brake changes is there anybody who can tell me of a successful brake booster option other than the remote unit.
i thiought maybe a gemini or something like that would work  :(

A bloke from the FB-EK club told me that a booster from a Datsun 180B (apologies for using bad language ) will do the trick . I suppose they had to be put on this earth for a reason.

At the last NSW AHD, I saw an EK with a small master vac setup.  The master was a twin circuit job.  The booster is about 6" diameter.  The assembly was mounted to the firewall in the master cylinder's location, no spacers and cleared the bonnet hinges.  Remember, this is on an EK, where the hinges are closer to the vehicle's centre line.

After finding the bloke who owned it, he told me that the assembly comes off a Mitsubishi Lancer , old style, that were initially marketed as Chrysler Lancers.  It has the same bore & stroke as the Torana master cylinder.  It might be worth looking at.


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