Print Page - Judging feedback?

OK, there's an extensive article ($2) on the topic on the Nationals site, where you can download the blank forms used at the 13th Nationals.

I've also added some comments on the process there, for the benefit of anyone interested. There also reproduced here, for feedback.

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Comments

Judging Books and Forms

The scheme for judging at the Nationals is always evolving, and this was the first time we (the NSW Club) had run a Nationals since Professional Judging had been introduced. (It was also the first Nationals to have Street Class and Authenticity as a component.)

Our Judges were enormously impressed with the book format, as it made it all but impossible to have transcription errors or "crossed wires" when it came to matching cars with forms.

However, the lesson learnt was that the judging form was too finely detailed, and there were too many cells on the form that had to be individually assigned scores. This no doubt played a part in the delay to complete the judging. A suggestion from the judges for future Nationals is to group together more of the elements, so that rather than giving separate scores for "Seats (20)", "Door Trims, Kick Panels & Trim (15)", "Headlining & Visors (10)" and "Floormats/Carpet (10)", a single score out of 55 would allow them to more quickly assess each vehicle.

Using comb-binding was also a mistake, as it made it difficult to move cars from one class to another. (The books had been printed and bound in Sydney, so late changes had to be stapled to the back of each book.) Hole-punching the sheets and putting them in a binder would have been better, as the sheets could have been moved from one to another more easily, and completed sheets removed and taken for tallying. By binding them together, we had to wait until judging was complete to get the books back from the judges and commence the tallying process.

Street Class

By and large, the introduction of Street Class was a success. A suggestion from the Judges was that perhaps Street Class should be expanded to include more of the red motor powered vehicles, leaving Modified to the extensively engineered vehicles. The delegates will ponder that for 2012.

Top 20 / Top 40

The old "Club Class" system was abandoned this year, replaced by a Summernats-style Top 20/Top 40 arrangement. I think on the whole this was quite successful, and fixed several glaring errors in the old scheme:

Category Awards were going to cars that didn't really deserve them. The car with "Best Exterior" was undoubtedly amongst the Top 20, yet the trophy was going to a car in Club Class.
There was a lack of understanding that "1st Place - Club Class - FE Commercial" did not necessarily mean you had the best FE Ute or Panel Van at the Nationals: perhaps there was a better one in the Top 20.
It was a logistical nightmare for the organisers to know how many trophies would ultimately be required in Club Class once the Top 20 were taken out.

The number of vehicles in each class being judged was used to determine the proportion each class had of the Top 20 and Top 40. With 55 Stock, 26 Street and 40 Modified judged vehicles, the Top 20 were the best 9 Stock, best 4 Street and best 7 Modified vehicles, with Top 40 comprised of the next 9, 4 and 7 respectively. You could also choose to have Top X Stock, Top Y Street and Top Z Modified. We didn't, because we had already had the "TOP 20" number-plates made by the time the Top 20 / Top 40 system was endorsed by the delegates.

Authenticity

Obviously, the introduction of Authenticity as 25% of the total for Stock Vehicles had an impact on the results. Whether it tipped the results too far is something the delegates will have to consider for future Nationals. However, it is agreed that providing an incentive the maintain an unrestored car, or when it is restored, to do it in a manner faithful to the original, is an aim worth continuing with.

As the authenticity judge I think that this new facet was quite successful - I have always believed that we should try and reward efforts to keep cars in stock class original.

My comments to the delegates would be as follows;

1) More cars should move from stock to street class. Street class should not necessarily be seen as a "modified" class, but rather as a "driven" class. I hope that Graham Fuller doesn't mind if I use his car as an example - a very nice stock looking car, but regularly driven and fitted with a number of improvements such as a power brake booster, electric wipers and electric screen washers to name a few. This type of car should be in street class because the authenticity component of stock class gives it no chance of a trophy in stock but could give the top 20 a real shake in street class. There were numerous cars in stock class who would have fared better in street class.
I think if your car has radial tyres, electric wipers & a booster it should be in street class automatically.

2) I think the penalty for a respray is too high in the authenticity component. The reason we try to keep cars looking stock is so that Joe Public doesn't think that FE's & FC's came out with electric wipers etc., but a respray doesn't necessarily deceive the viewer that something he is seeing is not right. Maybe 5 points would be fairer than 20. It still wouldn't have changed the result but at least it would give the restored cars a chance of top authentic. I judged Leon Spicer's car as more authentic than the winner of the trophy but it had been resprayed so it lost 20 points straight away giving it no chance of winning.
If Leon had only lost 5 points for paint, then it may have been interesting with a more critical look.

Ken

I don't think it's fair to say that Club Class hasn't been given a chance, we used Top Ten / Club Class at Jindabyne, Phillip Island and Mt Gambier. Effectively, the Top 40 is the old Club Class. What has been dropped is the breaking up of all the non-Top cars into Passenger/Commercial, Sedan/Wagon and all that. That was just untenable with the introduction of Street Class.

I was sure there was an article on authenticity on the official website, but can't find it now. I've written so much on the subject, maybe it was just in the delegates' forum. The nub of it though, is that authenticity doesn't necessarily mean original. I've taken the guts of the original proposal from the delegates' forum and added it to the Rules and Policies section of the Nats site ($2).

Hopefully that will add some clarity to what authenticity is about. Although the judging form saw a few changes before its first use at a Nationals, the basic premise remained unchanged. It should also be noted that Authenticity was trialled at the Victorian State Titles to refine it further.

Quote from: RET on April 10, 2010, 03:08:11 PM

Just remember that the more classes you have, the more shades of grey and rules that need to be devised. You have to ensure the classes match the cars at any event.

cheers
RET

very good point, RET, and no doubt the biggest and most daunting challenge for delegates, etc involved in the whole judging/show'n'shine area...

but nonetheless, it DOES irk me a little to see what I would class a fairly stock "survivor" lumped in with "restored to within an inch of its life and arrived on a trailer" cars.
(whilst I'll admit to a real fondness of the stock (or close) "survivor" type cars, the above comment shouldn't be construed as possibly biased - my only FE/FC is a modified :))

and your comment on the paucity of "custom" cars is, unfortunately, correct. But I sometimes wonder if this is only because it appears to "custom" car owners that State/National events don't cater for such cars...

cheers, jack

I’ve watched this discussion with some interest. I have held back on joining in because it was touching a raw spot with me personally. My car is no show car. It is in the survivor category, having never had a restoration. But the increased emphasis on authenticity struck a cord with me from the time I first heard about it, as I reckoned that would be relevant to my car.

I put in many hours before the Nats in tidying up bits and pieces on the car (in addition to having to replace the engine – but that’s a different story that has already been told). I even decided not to go on the picnic on Friday because I knew there were more things I hadn’t got done that would be worth doing and I so rarely get a whole day just to devote to the car, so I took that chance. As it turns out, I still ran out of time, but I felt good that I had done a stack of things I wanted to do and was happy with the overall presentation of the car. I know now that this should have been enough to make me satisfied, but that authenticity thing was still in the back of my mind and I had ticked the “to be judged” box.

My mistake then was to watch the judges as they judged my car. It didn’t take them very long. To be fair to them they knew they were way behind and they had judged 4 top 40 cars (including the eventual Grand Champ) in the same row immediately before looking at mine. Also, they are not there to judge the effort I have made, but it was rather deflating watching them move on so quickly.

What I now realise, and what is the point of putting up this post at all, is that they can’t judge the most important thing about my car – what it means to me and the joy I get in getting out on the highway and hearing the motor purr and the wind whistling around the sun visor and through the pull up air vent, or seeing it on an oval with 150 plus others like it.

So I don’t reckon I’ll bother ticking the “to be judged” box again, because there is no-one who is qualified to judge my car anyway.

And what does authentic mean for an unrestored car that’s over 50 years old. Mine has had 4 engines, 3 of the doors have been replaced because of accident damage and when one of the doors was replaced and painted in the 80’s the repairer did a bad job in matching the colour. Will it be more authentic if I respray that door so it matches better, or is it more authentic because that is the way it has come to be across a full and varied life on the road?

So, if trophies are important to you – do the full retso (and spend up big because I reckon you’ll need to), or travel a long way or break down – that seems to me to be what it takes. And don’t expect that there will ever be a way to solve all the issues that go with judging criteria etc. For me, I’ll leave the box unticked and just enjoy being at the event with the car.

Sorry that has turned into an essay.

Cheers and enjoy your cars.
David

Quote from: GOA350 on April 10, 2010, 05:11:12 PM

The best way to fix this is to have no judging or trophies.

That's a not uncommon suggestion. However, the problem with that approach is that without trophies, you just don't attract the really top quality cars. I appreciate that's a bit of a generalisation, and there are plenty of Nationals regulars who do bring top quality cars - yourself included - but the fact remains that our National event would not have the same quantity and quality of cars if it was just a big overnight run.

Quote from: ridgey_didge on April 10, 2010, 05:14:13 PM

My mistake then was to watch the judges as they judged my car. It didn’t take them very long. To be fair to them they knew they were way behind and they had judged 4 top 40 cars (including the eventual Grand Champ) in the same row immediately before looking at mine. Also, they are not there to judge the effort I have made, but it was rather deflating watching them move on so quickly.

Dave,

You should be aware that there were two sets of judges, Terry & Paul who were doing the Quality Fit and Finish aspects, and Ken, who was doing the authenticity. Mine was the very last car in the Stock area, and like you, I knew perfectly well that it wasn't a contender. And like you, I only left the car in Judged category because I was interested in how it fared for authenticity. So I told Terry not to bother with the rest of it.

I appreciate you taking the time to write your essay. The article on authenticity linked to previously ($2) attempts to define what we're talking about: for our purposes, "authentic" means "original, maintained or restored in a manner faithful to the original". We've documented in the voting sheet what is going to be judged and what the various penalties are for non-authentic alterations etc. In all honesty, if we had enough cars like yours to have a class of "survivors" at the Nationals, it would give me more pleasure than just about anything. I'm absolutely passionate about seeing unrestored cars maintained. As you commented though, defining it as a class in its own right is not the easiest thing to do.

cheers
RET

Like RET I love seeing unrestored original cars but judging authenticity is very difficult, There were only a couple of cars at the nats which really fitted the category and they are certainly not going to get much more common so a class just for them is probably unrealistic.
Unfortunately a lot of cars which look authentic to the casual observer are actually far from it.
My point is that the really good restored cars ARE authentic and they stand out from the poorly restored cars which have lots of mistakes made putting them back together.

I think the penalty for repainting is too high - why is it that an authentic car can have the engine fully rebuilt and the brakes fully rebuilt but you can't respray the body without attracting a penalty?

I love the social aspect of the nats but I also really like the trophies and look forward to seeing who will win. A grand chapion trophy is not the easiest thing to win and a top 20 trophy is great reward for effort.

David, I spent as much time on your car as I did with every other car and I was happy to talk to entrants who wanted to see how their car scored as long as they didn't hold me up too much. I managed to keep about 3 cars ahead of the other 2 judges so I wasn't as visible as they were.

Ken

Hi Guys.

I was one of the Stock Class judges at the event. I have found most of the comments posted so far to be constructive, except for the ones suggesting no judging to take place at all. It’s quite simple really, as RET has said it’s not an uncommon suggestion, but if you don’t like judging or trophies, just tick the ‘not to be judged’ box. If there was no judging or trophies, you wouldn’t attract the top quality cars & the event would not be what it was. Let’s face it, it was a great event.

I usually judge the authenticity side of things at other shows & concours events, so it was interesting to hear of Ken’s experience at the Nats. I totally agree that a weighting of 20 points is too high for ‘authentic’ paint. What he says about brakes & engine rebuilds versus a re-paint is quite valid also. Why does a perfectly restored engine, suspension or brake system gain high points, while a professional re-paint looses points. At other shows of this type, I would judge a re-painted car as being authentic as long as it’s carried out in the original style & colour scheme. We have to clarify the meaning of ‘authentic’, because ‘authentic’ does not mean ‘original’. You could do a high dollar rotisserie rebuild, including a total re-paint using all NOS parts, to me this car is still ‘authentic’, it’s just not ‘original’. Fine tuning of the points spread may need adjustment for future events.

At many events that I attend, the 3 judged classes are (unforunately in French):-
1.   Concours d’elegance = authentic, restored (judged on both authenticity & presentation).
2.   Concours d’etat = authentic, unrestored (i.e. original/survivor) (Judged purely on originality & not presentation).
3.   Concours d’mode = modified (Judged purely on presentation & not authenticity).

In this way, the untouched original car is on equal footing to the car that has just had a big dollar ground up restoration. There are quite strict rules on how ‘original’ is has to be, they do allow panel repair & paint on a few panels & a minimal number of ‘service replacement’ parts to be eligible, but the key is, how close it is to the day it was delivered.

Another solution is to just allow the judges to pick out their contender for the best ‘survivor’ or ‘original’ which has an additional separate trophy to the best judged authentic. Let’s face it, how many FE/FCs have their original paint & trim in 1st class condition ? Less than a handful I would say.

Getting to the judging itself at this event, too owners many spend a lot of time (& money) on paint & trim, but less on the smaller items. By this I mean small chrome pieces, kick panels, cowl trims, locks & underbonnet fittings. Many of these attract just as many points as paint & trim, but require less $$$ & more time & effort. I can always pick the car that has what I call a ‘cheque book rebuild’ compared to the one that has had less $$$ but far more attention to detail by the DYI owner. Extra time spent by the owner often results in a higher score than pure $$$ will ever achieve.

Most owners (myself included) would be incapable of re-painting a car a to concours level, but many more would be capable of restoring the underbonnet or interior of a car by themselves. Also, a total underbonnet re-paint (including removal & re-paint of the engine & radiator etc.) would cost much less in $$$ terms, but is worth the same in judging terms. Food for thought ?

I am not in favour of letting everyone see the judging sheets themselves (it would open up a nasty can of worms), but I am more than happy to answer any question or give assistance to any one that asks.

Dr Terry

G'day Fella's,

I have been reading this thread with interest along with supporting documents.
For an outsider looking in, I have found it very interesting.

Certainly I have been on both sides of the fence here, both as a judge and as a recipient.
I have always had reservations on the peer judging that the FB-EK Car Clubs utilise because if you are not part of a "clique" this can be detrimental to your cars chances on a personality basis. Or you can fall fowl to say, Sedan guys only voting for other sedans and either forgetting about commercials or station sedans or choosing not to vote for them because of dislike of a particular body style (the same can be said for colour, style of mag wheel etc).

That said, they do seem to have a great understanding of simplifying classes.

Original
Sports
Modified

Original requires the car to be as close to production as possible. With the only exceptions being radial tyres, carpet, hidden modern stereo (Still these limited modern items are discouraged) and preference should go to original everytime. It shouldn't though exclude them from this class otherwise you are pushed to "Sports" category. All NASCO options are permissible including Alloy Rocker cover along with other period (non go fast) aftermarket accessories.
Sports being categorised as no structural modifications, but can be fitted with multiple carbies, headers, mag wheels, bucket seats and only period sports offerings (Side shifter, aftermarket Alloy Rocker Covers and the like) etc.
Modified pertaining to cars that have had structural modifications such as transmission tunnel, body mods, Red motor, V6/V8, 9" diff, Tubbed, Flared guards, disc brakes etc.

This seems fair to me and quite simple. Sure I see the argument for "Authentic" and on a lesser scale "Driven" vs "Trailered" points should be awarded for driven (in my eyes).
I would think though, based on votes either by peer judging or "professional" judging you can pull out the scores for the limited amount of these Authentic entries and award the best of these a trophy or plate etc.

On to "professional" judges. While I understand that these people are deemed knowledgeable on the product models at hand and generally well respected for their advise and offerings over a long period of time. People don't know everything!, and it is evident that even this year awards have gone to some that "in my eyes" weren't deserved and it was glaringly obvious that somehow even this points system has failed. Now maybe I'm speaking out of hand here? Because I'm not part of the inner sanctum, but this doesn't mean I don't know what I'm on about. The car that one "Best Stock Engine Bay" c'mon the owner must have fell of his chair when this was announced. That's not to say the car was bad or even the engine bay itself, it's a loverly vehicle and a credit to it's owner. But it wasn't the best stock engine bay at the Nationals - not even close. I'll go on to explain why I feel it so. The car was fitted with plastic brake and clutch reservoirs, modern battery, worm drive radiator hose clamps for a start. I guess you could call for an argument that this is still a "stock" engine bay because it's not modified by way of a red motor etc. But in my eyes this is surely an award for the best original stock engine bay? It must be hard on those who have gone to the trouble and expense to get these thing right only to see the award go elsewhere.

I'd really like to know how this was awarded the trophy for Best Stock Engine Bay.
When I see something this glaringly obvious this taints the perception on all the other results.

I guess what I'm getting at is that I'd like to see all early Holden clubs get together with their "experts" to finally nut out a proper classing and judging system that is actually fair and leads to correct results. Uniformed across the models and devised from good hard facts not just guesstimations and folk law. This of course requires factual proof of certain things and this comes from GMH printed articles and "reference" cars (in fact I'd like to see reference cars rewarded and on a national registrar). It is these "experts" that own or have possession to this literature and once something is proven fact it can be adopted. This is where a true Concours d'elegance award could truly come into play.

Anyway, I didn't post this to knock anybodies car, any person or club. I did so in the interests in the history of early Holden's and in an attempt to see if others feel similar to myself.

Personally, I'd be interested in helping this become a reality. If not, I'll just crawl back into my hole :-X

Regards, Smooth 8)

Thanks for your comments Smooth, What you have described follows pretty closely with what we do. Our 3 classes are not far from what you describe.
The discussion in this thread was mainly about authentic judging which is far more difficult than class judging.
Put simply, original class must have cars included which are not 100% authentic, there are very few cars (if any) which are 100% original, so we set a value of 20 points lost from stock which allows a vehicle to remain in stock class. Points are awarded for plastic master cylinders and incorrect hose clamps etc.
But - once you are in stock class, you can win stock class trophies, so it makes no difference if technically you have incorrect items in your engine bay - it is judged quality which trophies are awarded for.
Now you can argue about judging decisions till the cows come home - in the end it is the judges preference on quality.

We added an authenticity score to all stock class cars to further penalise non stock items so in fact the quality has to be excellent for a not quite stock car to beat a really stock car.
This is the reason why the car that one did.
As one of your so called "experts" - I didn't see a single car which was 100% authentic so a 0 points score cannot work - you must have cars which are not quite right in stock class for the class to exist.
That said I did suggest that more glaring items such as electric wipers, power boosters and plastic washer bottles be automatically put in street class. But can you really suggest that a car with plastic master cylinders or wrong hose clamps should go straight into street class?

Ken

Quote from: mcl1959 on July 11, 2010, 10:38:55 PM

Yes, I can see that this is where the thread headed.
Let me say though, class judging (or category placing) is simple. Set the rules and stick with them. Make it clear if you go outside the guidelines you place yourself into another class/category and this how it is with good reason. On top of this, make it clear what the classes are and what defines them.

Quote from: mcl1959 on July 11, 2010, 10:38:55 PM

Put simply, original class must have cars included which are not 100% authentic, there are very few cars (if any) which are 100% original, so we set a value of 20 points lost from stock which allows a vehicle to remain in stock class. Points are awarded for plastic master cylinders and incorrect hose clamps etc.

OK, I'm just trying to understand how your system works. For me, I saw far more "authentic" engine bays at the event and under any fair system these are the ones to be rewarded. The points I made where based on very obvious incorrect items fitted to meet either Original, Stock, Authentic, Un-Restored classes (whatever you choose to name it). There were more technically correct and better stock engine bays at the event. If your judging system came up with another answer after tallying the points all I'm saying is that it is clear the method has it's shortcomings. This you can simply dismiss this advise or you can choose to improve on it.

Quote from: mcl1959 on July 11, 2010, 10:38:55 PM

But - once you are in stock class, you can win stock class trophies, so it makes no difference if technically you have incorrect items in your engine bay - it is judged quality which trophies are awarded for.
Now you can argue about judging decisions till the cows come home - in the end it is the judges preference on quality.

I'm not bringing this up to argue about, I'm just explaining were I see a problem and asking for it to be explained so everyone has an understanding how such a result can come about (not hot headed but a discussion). You have made some effort to explain this. But to me, only goes further to show that the system as a whole from one group to another manage to reward technical faults and thus why people are left confused.

See next post as I exceeded the 5000 charterer limit. :-[

Regards, Smooth 8)

Quote from: mcl1959 on July 11, 2010, 10:38:55 PM

We added an authenticity score to all stock class cars to further penalise non stock items so in fact the quality has to be excellent for a not quite stock car to beat a really stock car.
This is the reason why the car that one did.

One=won! OK, I feel its points "lost" to a points "gained" system. You state you award points for plastic reservoirs? I appreciate how hard it is to come up with these systems and results and I also appreciate the time and effort people put into judging. But at the end of the day people who put the time and effort into getting things right on their cars have worked just as hard if not harder.

Just as an example: Lets say you were judging Brake and Clutch cylinders and the points was out of say 10 points total.
As a judge I'd ask the question are these factory? Yes = 7 points No = 2 points a full 5 point split which is half the maximum (10) score available. From there, score them on condition, safety and finish adding and subtracting points as you go. Where correct items in perfect condition and presentation are awarded maximum points and incorrect items can only score half this maximum (5) amount in the exact same condition and presentation.

Lets look at another scenario: You have a perfect original standard stock car but you fit a 4 speed gearbox to it. No other modification in anyway. Where is it placed? Stock or Street? If the answer is Stock class and it has a chance of winning Best Stock or Best Authentic (whatever we call it) just because it has amassed more points in every other area this would be 100% laughable.

More reward should go to those who restore/maintain as close to original as possible and if you go away from this in your build you do so knowing you pushing yourself into another category, or penalising yourself with non factory release item in a scoring sense such as modern clamps, reservoirs, fan belts, wiper blades, batteries etc.

Quote from: mcl1959 on July 11, 2010, 10:38:55 PM

As one of your so called "experts" - I didn't see a single car which was 100% authentic so a 0 points score cannot work - you must have cars which are not quite right in stock class for the class to exist.
That said I did suggest that more glaring items such as electric wipers, power boosters and plastic washer bottles be automatically put in street class. But can you really suggest that a car with plastic master cylinders or wrong hose clamps should go straight into street class?

Well first of all you shouldn't be placing electric wiper and brake boosted cars into another class if they are fitted with genuine NASCO items such as the 7418909 Wiper motor or VH24 period released PBR booster. But I 100% see the point with EK wiper motors and VH44 boosters etc. Also, I'm not saying cars should be excluded from being in a category because of minor replacements items like the worm drive hose clamps or plastic reservoirs etc. But I am saying that they shouldn't be the trophy winners either. If they are so close and of quality - a quite whisper in the ear to let them know "if you change this and that" you will most certainly be in the running. This help drives these cars into a higher echelon and doesn't reward "almost got it right" especially when others have got it closer to the mark.

Further to the "reference" cars registrar idea:
If such a car was to say be awarded with this title by a governing body/committee the value of these cars would increase and become more desirable.
Sure you may have exclusions added. I.E: Barn find car has been inspected by the "experts" and it has been found to be a pristine original example apart from noted items.

1. Aftermarket mudflaps fitted to rear
2. Replacement radiator hose clamps on lower hose.
3. Quarter panel on left read has been repaired and painted at some stage.
Etc.

These cars could be made available at shows or "Concours" event for reference and people could use these examples as the guide to all things correct in their restorations. Judging standards set from them in conjunction with GMH literature and approved acceptance items.
Further to that; These cars would make the basis for Concours De' Elegance judging and allow people to strive and finally be awarded Concours De' Elegance certification which in no doubt would make the car more valuable on the open market because it would have a title of substance added to it.

Our cars are old, getting older. The knowledge is going to fade out if moves are not made to put something concrete in place.

Anyway, I thought I'd raise it and offer up an idea to improve the system as a whole.
If you feel you have it right the way it is, then who am I to contribute?

Regards, Smooth 8)

I appreciate your point of view and I do agree that it is admirable to encourage all owners of not-quite-right cars to improve them.

Problems - (1) owners HATE people like me coming up to them and telling them what's wrong with their car. Nothing turns people off clubs more than this. I try never to criticise an owner's car unless asked.
(2) With a heavy bias towards stock items, what eventually happens is poor quality cars end up beating higher quality cars just because they have less wrong things on them.

You are correct - EK wipers and VH44 boosters are what I mean - these are big detractions from stock, However I personally don't believe that a car with plastic master cylinders cannot win top stock engine bay.
A 4 speed gearbox gives you more points than will enable you to stay in stock class - so no, this car cannot win any stock class trophies.

Our system works by scrutineering cars into classes - once a car has been classed it can win trophies applicable to that class according to the judges decision.
A lot of work has gone into preparing the system which stands at the moment and the rules are quite clearly laid out for entrants. It may not be the ideal and continues to be refined. There will always be controversial decisions in judging.

Ken

It is unfortunate that the penalty for fresh paint skewed the results this year as there is no way Julius' car should have been placed where it was. My rule of thumb in judging has always been that if your methodology throws up what is clearly an incorrect result there is something wrong. I'm sure this will be rectified for the future.

Other than this I don't intend to enter this discussion. What I would like to do is to highlight some of the problems with highly original and authentic cars. I have an EH with 35,000 miles recorded and which is probably as authentic/original as any in existence down to paint chips, minor scrapes etc., Up until a few months ago it also had its correct - and I assume original - yellow wire hose clamps, which I was pretty happy about. On a short drive of less than 8klms the car overheated, pretty seriously. What had happened was that the clamp on the bottom hose at the radiator end simply broke and the car spat all of its water out. By the time the light went on and I could smell it, it had already overheated.

In our cars the two authenticity items commonly missing are these hose clamps and the tin reservoirs. I like both and on my previous low mileage FE reinstated the tins. Following the EH incident I will not continue to look for the wire hose clamps as a blown head gasket - or worse - is too big a price. Similarly, I made a conscious decision to leave the plastic reservoirs on NEV. Main reason is Nev doesn't get out that much and I can SEE if there is a problem, second after a while the tin lids can be buggers to remove and third, the less often I have to do this the less chance I have of spilling brake fluid on my restored engine bay.

So, I've made a conscious effort to be unauthentic in two critical areas in order to avoid potentially expensive problems and since I've done this there seems little point in bothering with a tar top battery. So, sometimes these apparent oversights are no such thing.

Just keep a close eye on those wire clamps.... ;)

Cheers
John

Many thanks for your reply John,

Quote from: Johns on July 14, 2010, 02:03:15 PM

Up until a few months ago it also had its correct - and I assume original - yellow wire hose clamps, which I was pretty happy about. On a short drive of less than 8klms the car overheated, pretty seriously. What had happened was that the clamp on the bottom hose at the radiator end simply broke and the car spat all of its water out. By the time the light went on and I could smell it, it had already overheated.

These clamps are known as Corbin's and yes yellow in colour. I hadn't mentioned these on this forum, so it is obviously something you know is correct (Though I don't remember seeing any fitted at this years nationals). It was a common problem which led to the Utilux bolt clamps (never worm drive) being the replacement by Holden and thus typically these are deemed acceptable because that was the "fix". Still, the wire Corbin's are shall we say more original and when it comes to judging the Corbin should score higher than Utilux bolt clamps, even if it is just a single point each.

As for things being safer and more practical etc. These can be fitted for the show display just like original 50+ year old fan belts or cross ply tyres. It is not uncommon for items to be switched out for display to gain authenticity. I do it myself with the steering wheel, AC radiator cap and accelerator heel pad. Others choose to swap out modern batteries for tar top battery cases. This gives a more accurate display and should be rewarded.

Quote from: Johns on July 14, 2010, 02:03:15 PM

Just keep a close eye on those wire clamps.... ;)

I have no issue (to date, fingers crossed) with the wire hose clamps on either of mine and I've done many long and interstate trips.
But what you raise is a fair point and I think I covered what some do on display day to gain maximum judging points.

On the day, people who go to the trouble and expense should be rewarded and in the end be the trophy winners, those who make only a "part attempt" should run second to that no matter how close. (of course this is an opinion) but one that is fair to original, stock, authentic, restored class.

I realise it's hard for competing members to speak out in fear of repercussions so I appreciate you making some sort of attempt.

Regards, Smooth 8)

A couple of points - Corbin clamps are not the only clamp authentic to FE FC - All period pictures from Wheels, Modern Motor etc show engine bays with strap clamps with nuts and bolts, except one which I think was a feature on twin carbs - We accept both clamps as authentic.

Re Julius's car - since you brought it up John, - have a look at it again a little closer next time. It is a very nicely presented car but its authenticity score was very low - Enough that its high quality finish could not get it near the class winners. It was not just because it had been repainted!!! This was not an inconsistent result and I do not expect it to be remedied in the future.

That said - I believe that if corrected in a few areas, the car could be a contender again.

I cannot accept that a car regardless of quality can win top stock just because it has all the "right" bits fitted. This sort of vehicle belongs in authentic / original / unrestored class - not stock class.

Ken

Firstly my apologies to Julius for debating your car without your involvement, no harm or insult whatsoever intended.

Ken, I don't wish to enter into a blow by blow debate here, but let me say this.

The fact is that based on the Top 20 awards Julius' car was judged at best 10th of the stockies. As have others on this forum, I have not only built Concours winning cars I have run and judged them for many years and I know what is required.

As has been debated here, there is a difference between an authentic car and a Concours car. I am aware that there are areas where Julius' car is judged to be unauthentic, but this is category is for the best stock car, taking into account ALL matters. In my opinion it is simply incorrect to eliminate a car that in every aspect is at least the equal of every car ahead of it simply because of authenticity issues. If the weighting given to these matters is enough to eliminate a car of this quality there really are judging issues to be addressed.

Let me briefly detail some of the issues that do not appear to have to been adequately taken into account. First and foremost is fit and finish of body panels. There is a myth that the panels on these cars don't fit, this is not correct. Aside from some very early cars it is not correct that front doors sit proud of the B pillar, front guards and sills do line up. what is variable is the actual panel gaps, mostly around the rear rear of the back doors. In a show car there is no excuse for poor panel fit, all of the panels on my FE fit very well, as did the panels on both my FCs, none had been interfered with. Poor quality orange peely paint is not authentic, its simply not up to scratch for a show car. All restored cars are show cars and the best should win.

I make no judgement as to whose car was best, but I looked very carefully at all the stockies and I know that Julius' car was not 10th best or worst, no matter how this is sliced or diced.

As I said in my earlier post, if the system is throwing out incorrect results it needs to be addressed, none of us should be afraid of this or afraid to debate it. If results inconsistent with common sense occur for long enough we really will dissuade people from entering.

Finally , my congratulations to all of those, particularly people like David, who put so much work into their cherished cars, it is miracle enough that they have survived at all.

John

Quote from: mcl1959 on July 14, 2010, 07:50:00 PM

Corbin are the clamps shown in "GMH" literature and an argument can be made that because of the known issues with these that cars offered for "Road Tests" were already improved for this short coming because they were to be "tested". I'm not saying this happened, but who's to say it didn't? You can make the judging rules on genuine GMH articles or in conjunction with others of the same period. GMH even have a correct tool listed for the Corbin clamps. Anyway either way, I'm happy to accept either as original. Unlike worm drives that were rewarded this year.

If there were to be a thrashed out set of rules that were adopted after input from those in the know, then people would have a target and guideline to work to and from.
This was the point I was trying to make in my initial post. Just because you or the others chosen to judge know, doesn't mean those trying to attain reward do! Really people should be able to look these things up and have a guideline to work from and aspire to.

Quote from: mcl1959 on July 14, 2010, 07:50:00 PM

That said - I believe that if corrected in a few areas, the car could be a contender again.

I believe I already mentioned a "quite word". But better still a readable set of guidelines to read and maybe the reasons as to why.

Quote from: mcl1959 on July 14, 2010, 07:50:00 PM

I cannot accept that a car regardless of quality can win top stock just because it has all the "right" bits fitted. This sort of vehicle belongs in authentic / original / unrestored class - not stock class.

I'm not sure where you are getting this from? My point is not to reward the "almost correct" when there are correct cars of similar standing. If you think that the car that won was a country mile ahead of "all" the others judged for "Stock" engine bays - then fair enough. But the simple fact was, that it isn't/wasn't. You seem to have a funny classing system either in the scrutinising for class or the award classes. You say not "Stock Class"? How does Stock differ from the others mentioned. As I said, one class is enough for Original unmodified cars (all encompassing) and if you feel you need to award something for "Authentic" then you can simple do so easily from the limited entries in the original class (or stock class if you prefer it called that). Either by experience or if you like, tallying the scores awarded.

I have no connection to anybody that displayed at the Nationals nor any influence over the judging procedure. What I feel is that some people were unhappy and in my eyes with valid arguments. Like I said I see it from both sides and based on my own suggestions my own cars would need further improvement to be competitive.

Fact is, right is right and wrong is always wrong. Don't reward wrong.

Seems it's about "our" system and what "we" want and do, rather than trying to nut a fair agreeable system across the early Holden scene that helps the set up the future on a known platform based on the wealth of experience and literature that us mad early Holden enthusiasts possess.

Regards, Smooth 8)

I have also been reading this with a small amount of interest, not for my own cars but for the whole FE/FC scene. Personally i don't care about judging. I built my car how i like it and if it fits into some category then so be it.
Having said that I think all this debate can only help. I think the guidelines for what is regarded as stock and what is not has a lot of merit, but i thought these were spelt out in the official program given to every entrant. If they weren't then maybe that is something that could be done next time. I know from experience that not even a barnfind that was put away 30 odd years ago has all the original parts on it. The only way we can get as close to the original parts list as possible is to get all the Guru's to talk to one another and put there heads together and write a list of things that they know are right and a list of doubtfuls and debate the doubtfuls as to which parts are more authentic than the others. Then put a score on each part. The only problem with this is that the judges will need a week to judge the stock cars let alone the other cars that are there. Unfortunatly this is how it all becomes very complex and in the end we come up with a compromise so we can get every car judged in a day. These are the very reasons i don't care too much for judging.
Cheers Scotty

Thanks for contributing Scotty, I think you also see the merit.

Quote from: GOA350 on July 15, 2010, 07:52:54 PM

...... Having said that I think all this debate can only help. I think the guidelines for what is regarded as stock and what is not has a lot of merit, but i thought these were spelt out in the official program given to every entrant.

It's too late in the "entrant program". The guidelines should be known during the build/restoration to all and sundry that care to know.

Quote from: GOA350 on July 15, 2010, 07:52:54 PM

...... I know from experience that not even a barnfind that was put away 30 odd years ago has all the original parts on it. The only way we can get as close to the original parts list as possible is to get all the Guru's to talk to one another and put there heads together and write a list of things that they know are right and a list of doubtfuls and debate the doubtfuls as to which parts are more authentic than the others. Then put a score on each part.

Yup, my point exactly and why not? Can only improve the system and scene as a whole. Finally adding some consistency across the board.

Quote from: GOA350 on July 15, 2010, 07:52:54 PM

..... The only problem with this is that the judges will need a week to judge the stock cars let alone the other cars that are there. Unfortunately this is how it all becomes very complex and in the end we come up with a compromise so we can get every car judged in a day.

Yup, also very true. But if the system is set amongst all the early Holden models and are well know with reference. Quality judging wouldn't take so long "once you know what to look for" and not rely on folk law or your own understanding (or misunderstanding as it may be) and theories. Put it in "Black and White" then entrants and judges are basically on an equal playing field.

Regards, Smooth 8)

FE-FC Holden Discussion Forum

General => FE-FC Holden Nationals => Topic started by: Rabbitoh on April 08, 2010, 01:17:47 PM