Jolls FC Ute Project

[Jolls]

Stripped down most of the front end and the diff today.

Diff had a 2.78 long bolt course spline centre. I salvaged the drums and brake components (almost new). The centre and housing are now in the for sale section along with my original 3.39 centre.

The front end was missing the brakes on the driver's side. Thanks to Rob I have a set of links to make the brakes work as this front end was shy as well. So I now have two front ends and still seem to be missing one "bolt".



I will search through my parts bin over the weekend. I trust that it was just thrown in the bucket by the previous owner when he stripped it down.

The front end also has a set of engine mounts welded in.


I compared it to my HR disck brake front end and the location is different.



So I guess it is not set up for a red six. Given the 2.78 ratio diff it could have possibly been set up for a V8.

Not sure what use it would be to anyone as I think any mod like that would now require a disc brake setup. Anyway if you have any idea of what it has been set up for or have a use for it - please let me know. My plan at this stage is to strip it down as spares so it takes up less room in the shed.

[ardiesse]

Craig,

For a moment I thought the king-pin front suspension was from an EH, and somebody drilled the holes in the outrigger to suit a grey motor.  But no.  The lower control arms are definitely FC.

The GM-H engineers moved the engine and transmission forward about four inches for the HD.  On the plus side, the firewall had no indent and the transmission tunnel became much smaller than in the EH.  On the minus side, worse weight distribution and more understeer.

Your HR front suspension has had the "early" crossmember outrigger fitted, but as the car it was fitted to had a grey motor, there was no need to move the red motor engine mounts.

My two cents' worth: don't strip it down to save space.  Parts will get lost.  Attach a wheel rim to one side and park it in a corner, standing on its side.

Rob

[Jolls]

Thanks Rob,

Both of these front ends came out of FC's. The HR front end was licked up from a guy down the south coast who reverted his FC back to original. The second one that I picked up on Wednesday I have no info on. I will try to track the fella I picked it up from and get some detail on what it is set up for.

Cheers
Craig

[Jolls]

Just heard back from the guy I purchased the front end from. He advised that it had a 161 in it when he picked it up.  I guess the original HR mounts were a but too far forward for a red in an FC.

[Jolls]

Bucketing down rain here in Murrumbateman so no shed construction going on today with Son 3.

Great opportunity to commandeer Mrs J's Oven and get to work on the donk.

I had already soaked the rope in oil and fitted it and the crank so I had a bit of a head start.

Gudgeon pins into the freezer pistons and rods into the oven, went together so easy. Threw the rings in; only one of the compression rings were sided so it was pretty simple.

Then out to the shed to start putting bits back together (finally). The manual in an excellent guide so it was pretty easy to get the alignment right. Then had a minor drama - one of the bearing caps had smaller nuts than the other five so they are only done up hand tight at the moment. Will need to get into one of the specialty fastner joints and buy 12 matching ones of the right grade and then tighten it all up. Not a big drama just a PITA. I would have known this from when I stripped it down - but clearly for got.

Fitted the cam and oil pump and that is about as far as I can go at the moment. I have to clean out the sump and get it ready to go and the head is still in the post so there is no rush and there are plenty of other things I can turn my hand to in the short term. Steering and brakes is one aspect and finishing the rust work it the other.

Son 2 has gone back to swinging spanners so he will take the axles in and press the bearings on so I can get the diff back together. King pins are still in getting done and I will end up making the spacer for the front brakes on the lathe - I have had some ridiculous offers on FB Marketplace  for something I can turn up easily.

So I guess now that things are starting to go back together we have turned the first corner. Still a long way to go but the small wins keep us heading in the right direction.

[ardiesse]

Craig,

Conrod nuts - for a B motor they should be 19/32" AF.  The thread is a non-standard size - 11/32"-24TPI.

Come the J motors, the conrod nuts were changed to a tall 1/2" (I think, but maybe 9/16") AF nut, but still 11/32"-24 thread.

So I reckon you might have one EJ conrod.  Your chances of finding replacements will be limited are very good.  ARP sells conrod bolt and nut kits for grey motors Starfire conrods: AR205-6002.  They also sell the nuts: Nut Kit 8740.

Otherwise I could unearth a couple of the old-style 19/32" AF conrod nuts and send them down.

Rob

[Jolls]

Thanks Rob,

I have them on route from Rockets.

Cheers

[Jolls]

Ordered the ARP nuts yesterday and they arrived this morning.

King pins were completed and picked up by son 3 yesterday.

TNT dropped the bundle on picking up the head. Received a cal to say it has been handed off to Interparcel for delivery. It has yet to be picked up so expect delivery mid tp late next week.

Bottom end was all buttoned up today.

Didn't proceed any further as I need to paint it before the harmonic balancer and accoutrements go on.

Put both steering columns back together - getting the bearings back in is a real art! I decided not to cut off the washer reinforcement on the "repaired" selector shaft and will keep that column as a spare for the time being. I haven't set either up to spec as yet.

Off to watch the Tigers play tomorrow and grand daughter's birthday Sunday so there won't be much progress over the weekend. I may get some time to modify the old rocker cover to make an oil dam for setting the hot clearances.

A question on fasteners for the timing cover. The original motor (still on the run up jig) has different sized and length bolts, whereas, the FB donk we are rebuilding has the corresponding bolts and reinforcemnt plate but the left hand side (the short fasteners) uses the same screws as the sideplate and sump. What is correct?

Cheers

[Jolls]

Found and answer to my own question.

I pikced up a master parts catalogue FX-FC yesterday so thought I would tke a gander.

Sure as eggs - Bolt and Lockwasher Assembly 1/4" x 20TPI 5/16" in depth.

I checked the sideplate cover fastners and they are simply listed as bolt special, bolt and lockwasher and washer ext lock  1/4".

I have plenty of spares of the side plate screws but may see if I can find some socket heads the right size to replace them all.

Now to see what I can pull up in the local fastener shops.

[ardiesse]

Craig,

The short timing cover screw (1/4-20 x 5/16) is round head with a screwdriver slot.  Its lockwasher is an "ordinary" type.  I have many of them if you want to go original.

Many people replace them with the sump/sideplate screws (the famous "stovebolt" of six-cylinder Chevrolet fame, and yes, they carry the same part number.

Beware of replacing the stovebolts with socket-head cap screws.  The SHCS have a much smaller head and you risk distorting the side plate unless you use a flat washer of 7/16" or 1/2" diameter to spread the load.

You've already got the camshaft in, so I'm too late with this suggestion: replace the camshaft thrust plate bolts (1/4-20 x 3/4) with button-head socket head screws.  Makes installation and removal much easier than with a thin-wall quarter-inch drive 7/16"AF socket.

Rob

[Jolls]

Thanks Rob,

So they are screws. I think I have the dome head ones in a bucket of bolts - wasn't sure what they were off. Now I know. I have plenty of stovebolts, so no worries there.

I was thinking about replacing them for ease of undoing down the track. It was easy to put together using a screwdriver now that they have all been cleaned. I was thinking more about the sump than anywhere else as they are a pain to undo with a screwdriver when they are caked in oil and road grime.  The point about the surface area is noted and will require both a plain and star washer if I go down that track. I am torn between keeping the original look and modifying it ever so slightly. Given I plan to run the triple SU's (providing I have a suitable manifold) and already have the alloy rocker cover. the Socket Heads won't look out of place I do decide to change. over.

There was defintely a trick missed on the camshaft thrust plate bolts - but I didn't find them difficult to remove or insert so my trsty old sidchrome socket set should be up to the task if I ever need to do it again. I trust not! I will keep it in mind for when I refresh the original donk though.

[Jolls]

So finally the head has arrived!





This is the last part of the engine puzzle. Masterstroke Engineering classify it as a Stage 3 Grey Motor Head, which includes the following:

• Surfaced
• Throated to suit 202 Red motor valves (inlet & exhaust)
• Machine ported to suit 202 valves
• Hardened Exhaust seats
• 3 angle profile valve seats
• bronze K line inserts
• spring seats machined to suit 308 springs and retainers
• 308 springs & modified retainers  (80lbs seat pressure cam to 550 lift)
• Valve stem heights corrected to OEM Spec
• K-Line Valve Guides ,Intake & Exhaust Valves  & Valve stem seals
• Brass Welch plugs

I have one of Harv's improved head gaskets on the shelf ready to go and the bottom end work is done; but, I have piers to pour for a job this morning and relos arriving this afternoon to watch the Socceroos at GIO Stadium so I won't get a chance to put it all together until Sunday arvo - what a PITA  ;)

Now that I am not "in charge" of the business Son 3 has had me working hard but I have managed to get the rocker gear apart, into the ultrasonic cleaner, and back together again in preparation. I also managed to clean up all of the gunk from the brake gear and clean up all of the adjustors etc and have them in a ziploc bag with some light oil to prevent them rusting. I also cobbled together two sets of wheel cylinders, extracted the snapped bolts from two of them and run a tap through the threads. Now it is a matter of getting them off to the brake shop to have best of them resleeved.

It has been a bit of a process to get here as I chose to coordinate the machine work though three different shops. Bottom end by Phillip Heads in Canberra, Cam by Clive Cams and the head work by Masterstroke Engineering. Each of them have been excellent to work with and apart from TNT dropping the ball on delivery of the head the process was pain free. We will see how good my project management was in due course!

Once I have the head back on I will dry fit the triple SUs and check for firewall clearance. Despite being promised that the SU setup would fit without any modification to the firewall or relocation of the battery it is still something I need to rule out before I get the stage of fitting it.

Small steps; a but like eating an elephant, just one bite at a time.

[Jolls]

I must have been nice to son 3 when I was running the show because he let me off once we had the concrete in.  So:

• Head has been modified as per Harvs instructions
• Installed the head and rockers - removed the self tapper from the rocker connecting nut (new oil pump isntalled)
• Tested oil system using a drill and an old distributor shaft - oil flow to all of the important bits
• Test fit triple SU and exhaust setup
• Test fit twin stromberg manifold

A couple of observations that I need to work through. Perhaps you guys may have a solution.

I'm planing on using a Speco alloy rocker cover. See photo below. Anyone already solved what to use to seal the top?



The SU setup gives me 85mm clearance from the back of the engine - do you think that will clear the firewall?

The SU setup has "rings" incorporated into the manifold. These are larger than the inlet ports in the head. How have you guys dealt with this? Basically a reduction from 1.5" to 1 1/4" if expect.

[ardiesse]

To seal the rocker cover, use the original equipment rocker cover grommets (from Rare Spares).

I think you will still run into clearance problems with the rear SU against the firewall.  Even a "standard" inlet manifold goes quite close to the firewall at the rear corner.  And the SU manifold is meant for a head with seriously enlarged ports.  Easiest (at the cost of a head gasket) is to take the head and manifold back to the machine shop and say, "Fit this to that, please."

It may be worth hinting at this point that the twin-Stromberg setup will be much easier to install.  Interesting manifold, though.  It's not "cranked" like others I've seen.  The mounting plane for the carburettors is parallel to the block deck, it seems.  The carburettors will have a slight backward tilt.

Rob

[Errol62]

Don’t let rob put you off the SUs, Craig. All practicality aside, they are the horn mate. For practicality sake though, I would run some paper element “pancake” filters, and here is where you will run into clearance issues for sure. I recessed the firewall in my FB ute by tracing the interference border and cutting an X from corner to corner, massaging out for 10mm clearance. Then I taped it up on the inside and sprayed black from the engine bay to make a pattern, and butt welded it in. You really don’t notice it has been done.
I know, it is a red, but it it was mated to original crashie. If gets down to the manifold of course. You can be pretty confident yous was designed to fit the FE EK, sa well as humpy firewall at least. My manifold would have been designed for EH.


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[Jolls]

Don’t let rob put you off the SUs, Craig. All practicality aside, they are the horn mate. For practicality sake though, I would run some paper element “pancake” filters, and here is where you will run into clearance issues for sure. I recessed the firewall in my FB ute by tracing the interference border and cutting an X from corner to corner, massaging out for 10mm clearance. Then I taped it up on the inside and sprayed black from the engine bay to make a pattern, and butt welded it in. You really don’t notice it has been done.
I know, it is a red, but it it was mated to original crashie. If gets down to the manifold of course. You can be pretty confident yous was designed to fit the FE EK, sa well as humpy firewall at least. My manifold would have been designed for EH.
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Thanks Clay, I haven't shelved either of the carby options yet. I was hoping that I would not have to deal with any firewall mods so I could finish the shell and be done with it. The fella I purchased the SU's from "guaranteed" that they fit without having to do any mods. They still may - but definitely not with a panckake. The more immediate problem now is working out how to locate them as the manifold location rings aren't compatable with the head. I can take it off and drop it down to Phillip Heads to get it done - but once I make that decision I am committed to that solution going forward. I was hoping to have the ability to swap and change carby setups if I wanted to - between performance and historic  looks.

I hadn't picked up on the twin manifold being flat until Rob mentioned that the carbies would be on a tilt. I expect it would be an aesthetic issue more than a practical one as I could jack the car up to set float levels etc.

I have plenty to work on so will think about it a little more; but the SU's are in front on the horn factor. The bolt on factor does make the twins a much simpler option.

I note your Coopers branded wiper motor and am wondering if Reschs produced on simiar in NSW. I will get onto that next. ;)

[Jolls]

I was a little disheartened to find that my "guaranteed" to fit without firewall modifications triple SU's don't. So I have been contemplating my fall back options of the twin strombergs (which I will get up and running as my plan B) and locating a manifold that will work without having to take to the firewall. I think I have found a Warneford Design manifold that will meet my needs so hopefully the information that comes back tonight is favourable and I can keep going.

We had a bit of rain here today so got some admin out of the way and bundled up all of the clutch and brake bits and bobs and headed off into Canberra Brake and Clutch in Fyshwick. I spent and hour or so in there with the owner as he went through all of the components I bought in.

Of the 9 brake drums I took in 2 measured up as standard, four as machinable but requiring oversized shoes and three paperweights. I expect on closer inspection one or two of the O/S machinable drums will also end up as paperweights. A good outcome as I should have a good set of machined drums with matching shoes and a spare set of matching oversized drums.

I took in eight wheel cylinders and all bar one are original and the odd one is a PBR cylinder. One of the originals has been moldested with a hammer at some stage - but should be salvagable. Four of the original cylinders will be sleeved in stainless steel, the others I will keep in reserve as spares/trading material.

The clutch slave I took in was a new aftermarket Protex that does not require work; however, he believes he has an original slave cylinder in his box of tricks out the back so will sleeve that and I will keep the Protex as a spare.

I took in two clutch and two brake masters; the two best will be sleeved in stainless and the other two kept as spares/trading material.

Two sets of adjustors were degreased and then thrown into an ultrasonic bath, using finish dishwashing tablets as the cleaning agent. They all now adjust fine and the adjustor cores are soaking in machine oil while I wait for the brake work to be completed.

We had an interesting discussion about maintaining the brake and clutch systems in historic plated vehicles (not that mine will be plated this way initially). He is not a fan of the DOT 5 (silicone based) fluid at all and highly recommends against its use. I am still in two minds - but given both systems will be completely new I can jump either way (once).

In his view once the stainless sleeves are in the only maintenace problem will be the rubbers. He and his machinist have been working on solutions to prevent the oxidisation that is the primary cause of the rubber deterioration that leads to flud leaks. He originally machined a groove around the wheel cylinders and fitted an "O" ring. This proved unsuccessful. Their current method, that he believes is successful, is to fill the adjustor with rubber grease before it is installed. They believe that the rubber grease prevents the oxidisation and premature failure of the rubber seals.

In relation to shoes he can get mine rebonded, but he can get new standard and oversized shoes in. In his opinion the meatel used in the new shoes is superior and the wear in many of the old shoes makes many of them only good for boat anchors. I will keep my stash of shoes just in case.

[Jolls]

Hi Team,

I have read though troves of information on engine colours on this and the FB/EK site.

If I have it right the GMH official colour is GREY MOTOR GREY 393-10367 Dulux Autocolour Holden Engine Grey. The most recent off the shelf equivalent of the colour was Power Plus PP427 which is also no longer made. Rares are now advertising Dupli-Colour NEW "GREY" Engine Enamel as PP427.

Can anyone tell me if the Dupli-Colour NEW "GREY" is close to the original or am I best getting somone to mix the original Dulux recipe?

Cheers

[ardiesse]

Craig,

I once had some Holden Engine Grey mixed up, and it was like a mustardy greeny grey.  The PP427 is a lot closer to the original colour, but like all things Holden, "original" depends on what year your engine was made.  If you have an oil filler cap or rocker cover that you like the colour of, there are paint places which will match to suit.

I found that the Dulux colour Charcoal Grey is a good starting point.  But that was 1984 . . .

Rob

[Jolls]

Thanks Rob,

I have the the original grey that I could use to get colour matched so no problems there. Just wondering if this NEW GREY is close to the "real thing". Seems Rare Spares have have just tagged the NEW GREY as PP427. Knowing the quality of some Rare Spares componets it could be anything. I guess I can buy a can and do a test if no-one has used it. My local Rare Spares stockist (Speed Spares) doesn't keep the NEW GREY and tells me the "real" PP427 went off the shelves last year. 

Cheers