Grey Motor info

[zulu]

I'll get my torch & magnifying glass out Tony & check out all my blocks.
Good on ya for digging all that info up!
As a result of an earlier post I have found a block with only 2 welsh plugs.
Do you know where I need to look for the CWC?
Regards Gary

[Ray Bell]

It seems that not a lot of those who posted on this thread are still on the forum...

However, I'm going to suggest that the passage of almost a decade since everyone went scurrying off to their piles of blocks means nobody found one.

Is this correct?

I'm hot on the trail of the truth of this Canadian block myth. I want to get to the bottom of it.

Does anyone have a photo of any of the prototype cars' engines showing the logo from CWC?

[NES304]

Whoa, Nearly 10 years between drinks...

[Ray Bell]

The subject is still very much alive, however...

What's with the leeches?

[RET]

I'm still here, still very firmly of the opinion that there's no such thing as a "Canadian" block that was ever fitted to a Holden.

Leeches?

[mcl1959]

I am also still here, I have been investigating early Holden history for over 20 years. There is no evidence, nor reason why an imported engine for early Holdens existed. Holden had experience during the war with making engines for aeroplanes so the shift to car engines was not a big one, however improvements in the casting process meant that cost reductions could be achieved by reducing wall thicknesses hence the myth of the early casting being that of imported origin.
Regarding the story of exporting engines to Canada, the immense size of the Canadian / American market would mean that any content offered by Australia would be insignificant. Add that to the waiting list for early Holdens would mean that it would be extremely unlikely.

Early engines were certainly better for racing because they could be bored out a lot more than later ones, but they were also prone to letting go as we'll. later engines were stronger. In the seventies, it was very fashionable to race an early Holden with an EJ block.

My position - myth
But you sound like you have a theory, so lets hear it

Ken

[OldGMHolden]

Well...... Time for my 2 bob's worth!

Having been around and in greys since the early 60's, I have heard most of the theories on Canadian blocks, and IMHO none of them hold water.
I was involved in motor sports through the 60's and 70's and can't recollect any reputable engine builder referring to a "Canadian Block" at that time.
They just knew that there were some blocks that had better placement of the cylinders than others, and were more suitable for bigger bores.
As there were plenty of blocks around at the time, they could play with dozens until they had success.
From memory, they didn't necessarily come from early or late castings, it was just luck of the draw.
There is no definite proof that Canadian blocks do or do not exist, but surely if there was such a thing somebody would have proof?
I have always felt that the myth was invented by someone trying to make a buck out of scrap metal, and there will always be those types and plenty of willing believers.
Finally, my knowledge does not come from my brother-in-law's mate whose son's girlfriend knew a bloke at GMH. It's all first-hand.

Ol'Gaz

PS Please do not take this post as a personal attack if you don't agree, and please don't weigh into me. ;D

[GOA350]

My opinion on the best Grey motor to rebuild is the EJ. As for the Canadian Block, MYTH.
The reason the EJ is the best is that Holden put all there refinments and technology at the time into building the EJ motor to be the most reliable and economical it posibly could be before changing to the Red motor and the last of every model has proven to be the best.
Cheers Scotty

[Ray Bell]

So the early engines let go in racing too?

Does that mean that the Scottish (forged?) crankshaft story is a myth too?

[Dr_Terry]

It seems that not a lot of those who posted on this thread are still on the forum...

However, I'm going to suggest that the passage of almost a decade since everyone went scurrying off to their piles of blocks means nobody found one.

Is this correct?

I'm hot on the trail of the truth of this Canadian block myth. I want to get to the bottom of it.

Does anyone have a photo of any of the prototype cars' engines showing the logo from CWC?

Hello Ray.

My name is Terry Bebbington, author of 60 Years of Holden & earlier books in that series. I don't to pretend to know much more than any others on this forum, but I have worked in the auto industry for 43 years & drag raced quite a few Holdens (although mostly V8s). Most of what I've learnt on this topic is 1st hand & I've shared much of my info with both Barry Black & Don Loffler. I know them both well & have visited them many times when interstate trips allow. I've also communicated with David Hayward many times over the years. Another person with knowledge on this topic is Stan Bennet.

My view of the so-called 'Canadian Block' is that it is a myth or urban legend, that does have a basis in some small elements of truth.

What I believe is as follows:-

1. All Holden Grey motor blocks were cast at Fishermans Bend, with the except of the hand-full of prototypes.
2. Similarly all Grey cranks were forged at Fishermans Bend, except the prototypes.
3. The prototype blocks were cast in Michigan USA (by the company CWC), not in Canada.
4. There were several changes made to block castings over the years, but a major change occurred at Eng No. 37832, where the cylinder walls were reduced in thickness for improved cooling. The change in welch plug size also occurred at this time. In those days casting techniques weren't as precise as they are today & cylinder bore centering was always an issue. Obviously some improvements to this were made between 1948 & 1951 when the 'improved' block was introduced.
5. Speaking to many old speedway & racecar engine builders of the era, their aim was to find an well-centred early block (with the thicker cylinder walls, which they identified by the welch plug size) to gain maximum bore size. They had no concerns with overheating as you would in everyday traffic usage & besides by the time they bored out the block it would have had thinner walls than your average stocker. They often bored a dozen or so blocks before they found a good one, which didn't go thru to the water jacket.
6. I have seen a picture of the CWC casting logo, which David Hayward has mentioned, but that was many moons ago & I'm damned if I can locate it now. You could understand how it could be mis-read as CWO.
7. I've never seen anything in official literature or in the flesh to prove the existence of a Canadian block.
8. If I was building a performance Grey motor nowadays, I would find a good EJ block. As others have said it is 15 years younger, most likely would have 15 years less water corrosion damage & made using more improved techniques than in 1948.

Regards Dr Terry (Bebbington)

[Dr_Terry]

So the early engines let go in racing too?

Does that mean that the Scottish (forged?) crankshaft story is a myth too?

Hello again. It looks like you posted while I was posting.

Yes, all these early engines did let go, they only had 4 main bearings, but contrary to popular belief, ALL Grey cranks were forged. Nobody back then was capable of producing modern nodular cast iron cranks, forged ones were what everyone used.

Yes, I've seen nothing to suggest the existence of any Scottish Grey cranks either.

I know many Holdens over the years have had longer stroke Vauxhall cranks adapted to suit & maybe they are made in Scotland.

I see no reason why GM-H would need to import blocks or cranks, because in those days (unlike now) Australia was one of the world leaders in metal technology. GM-H's input to the war effort (in WWII) surprised many, especially the Yanks & the Poms. During the 1930 when Larry Hartnett first came on board, he was amazed to see that we weren't just a 'colonial outpost', but ha the capability of building a complete car from the ground. This was one of the main reasons that the Government gave GM-H the nod to build the 48-215 in the first place.

Regards Dr Terry

[RET]

Nice work, Terry - appreciate your comments and experience on this.

Since the last time this topic had a run (10 years ago!) I had the very great pleasure and opportunity to discuss racing grey motors with Des West, who still holds the record for the fastest grey motor down Conrod Straight :D

He also says it's a myth. His take on it was whilst the cylinders in a grey motor appear to be lined up to the naked eye, they are "as crooked as buggery" if measured accurately.

His secret to consistently getting good blocks for racing was to oversize the bore based on where it should be, not where it was. Most blokes just drilled out the existing hole, and as a result would wind up with a too-thin wall at some point.

In Des' opinion, the whole 'some blocks bore out better than others' is simply a function of which block-boring machine they went through, and how straight the bores were that you started with.

And that seems pretty reasonable to me. ;)

cheers
RET

[Ray Bell]

Thanks very much, Terry, for a comprehensive run-down on things as you've found them...

I don't see how anyone can contradict what you've posted here. But I'm sure Nicko would still do so!

[NES304]

The subject is still very much alive, however...

What's with the leeches?

You still have not explained the Leeches comment?

[Dr_Terry]

Nice work, Terry - appreciate your comments and experience on this.

Since the last time this topic had a run (10 years ago!) I had the very great pleasure and opportunity to discuss racing grey motors with Des West, who still holds the record for the fastest grey motor down Conrod Straight :D

He also says it's a myth. His take on it was whilst the cylinders in a grey motor appear to be lined up to the naked eye, they are "as crooked as buggery" if measured accurately.

His secret to consistently getting good blocks for racing was to oversize the bore based on where it should be, not where it was. Most blokes just drilled out the existing hole, and as a result would wind up with a too-thin wall at some point.

In Des' opinion, the whole 'some blocks bore out better than others' is simply a function of which block-boring machine they went through, and how straight the bores were that you started with.

And that seems pretty reasonable to me. ;)

cheers
RET

Good point RET.

Anyone who has used an old fashioned boring bar & can see how it's done today with something like a Sunnen hone would appreciate the problem.

I was having a phone conversation with Ray Bell yesterday & another point I mentioned to him was that every knowledgeable 'old' race engine guy that I spoke to on this topic had the same take on it as Des. They said it was a myth they had heard of somewhere it time, but had no idea how it originated.

Dr Terry

[customFC]

Who made the WEY rocker covers is as big a mystery. We know they exist, but who or what is WEY?
I think you guys would have a better chance finding a Tasmanian Tiger than a Canadian grey block.
Regards
Alex

[RET]

Who made the WEY rocker covers is as big a mystery. We know they exist, but who or what is WEY?
I think you guys would have a better chance finding a Tasmanian Tiger than a Canadian grey block.
Regards
Alex

I thought that one was solved: Waggott Engineering Yagoona.

cheers
RET

[customFC]

I thought that one was solved: Waggott Engineering Yagoona.

cheers
RET

Loose speculation at best.
Regards
Alex

[NES304]

I thought that one was solved: Waggott Engineering Yagoona.

cheers
RET

What about the mystery of "Leeches" ?

[zulu]

This has probably been on here before, It's a tribute to Jack Myer by his family

It mentions a colaboration Jack had with Merv Waggott in developing the double overhead cam grey motor

Lots of info and pictures over 3 pages followed by more pics
http://aussieroadracing.homestead.com/Jack-MyersP1.html

Gary